Jack and the Beanstalk

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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby Boreades » 8:04 pm

spiral wrote:
macausland wrote:in the West Country they pray to St Clement

Weather.
macausland wrote:or St Dunstan

Horse.


Oranges and lemons, Say the bells of St. Clement's.
You owe me five farthings, Say the bells of St. Martin's.
When will you pay me? Say the bells of Old Bailey.
When I grow rich, Say the bells of Shoreditch.
When will that be? Say the bells of Stepney.
I do not know, Says the great bell of Bow.
Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
And here comes a chopper to chop off your head!

At which point we switch threads to Off Your Head
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby hvered » 11:24 am

Penny wrote:The eminence associated with hunting vocabulary is apparent in other languages, not only Gaelic, cf. Aramaic/Hebrew "tzaid" as in Cid (El), found in Sidon, Sfat, etc. etc.

Caesar seems to be a Leader of the Hunt. 'Chase' is chasser in French, cazar in Spanish.
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby macausland » 11:33 am

Funny thing about Bell. She was the wife of Wade in North Yorkshire. They were both giants who were involved in building roads and standing stones and various natural features such as the Devil's Punchbowl or Hole of Horcum which Wade dug out with his hands to throw at Bell.

Typical matrimonial tiff for the area.

It's strange how names in 'mythology' coincide with real names and associated activities. Occupations and the names of those involved being some of them. Pippa Greenwood, Bob Flowerdew etc on Gardener's Question Time.

In this case I'm thinking of General Wade and his military roads.

Wade's (the giant) stone has recently been re-erected after having fallen down.

http://www.real-whitby.co.uk/north-york ... llen-giant
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby hvered » 12:03 pm

Could 'giant' be a term for earth-moving? According to the late great folklorist Jennifer Westwood (not sure if that's occupational), the Old English word for giant is eoten which suggests a man-made island or eyot. In English eaton or eton is common enough, usually at a river crossing.

Interestingly the story of Red Etin, a three-headed ogre, described as a Scottish fairy tale seems to be a somewhat more elaborate version of Jack and the Beanstalk.
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby macausland » 1:32 pm

Red Etin.

I've just been checking up and it seems that Etin is the same as the Norse Jotun. The Jotnar were one of the races of giants.

The Red Etin story seems a bit like some sort of initiation ceremony. The hero is given advice from a 'fairy' and several men looking after a variety of animals.

His task is to enter the castle, solve the riddle, win and get the girl.

Perhaps it's all part of 'Aberfeldy's' hunting society and culture?

Many years ago I was at Loch Tay on a gaelic course. We were reading from a collection of local folk tales, most of which concerned the uruisgean or 'brownies' in English. They were supposed to be water spirits who lived out on the loch.

Apparently the people living on the shore were plagued with them. One particular young uruisg used to jump down through the smoke hole in the roof and steal the bannock being baked by an old woman, before she could take it off the baking girdle. One day she places a flat stone in the shape of a bannock on the girdle. Once it is heated down jumps the uruisg who grabs the red hot stone and doesn't realise what has happened until he's half way out of the door. His mother comes round to have a go at the old woman. I forget exactly what happened but the woman won.

At the time we were there there was a very severe drought on and the waters of the loch lowered substantially. To such an extent that old posts of a crannog were exposed. Presumably where the uruisgean used to live.

Archaeologists have been at work in the area and a reconstruction of one of these crannogs has been built.

http://www.crannog.co.uk/
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby hvered » 7:32 am

According to Cornish folklore the giant on St Michael's Mount was none other than Cormoran i.e. cormorant or 'Sea Crow'.

Cormoran and his wife Cormelian built the mount with their bare hands using nearby granite blocks. Chapel Rock, facing the mount's causeway, is where Cormelian dropped a greenstone when her apron strings broke.

Jack killed Cormoran, through trickery as ever, by digging a deep pit and disguising it. The giant fell into it and Jack put a pick through his head, an ancient method of trapping and despatching animals.
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby spiral » 7:45 pm

Cormoran....Looks intriguing

The Cor could be Cor in cornwall
The Mor could be=Mer as in sea

The folklore looks like the normal Jack outsmarts or gambles with the giants and wins ......explanation of Megalithic stones....
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby hvered » 12:09 am

Kernow is how Cornwall is written in tourist brochures. Ker is translated as fort, camp, hillfort, earthwork.

The Devil's Punchbowl is said to have been created during a fight between two giants (nameless); one scooped out a clod and threw it but missed, thereby forming the Isle of Wight. Quite far-flung places though the A3 directly links the Devil's Punchbowl to Portsmouth and the IoW.
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby macausland » 8:50 am

'Kern' is also the plural of 'korn' meaning 'horn (of animal and musical)'.

http://www.howlsedhes.co.uk/cgi-bin/diskwe.pl
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby hvered » 8:13 am

macausland wrote:'Kern' is also the plural of 'korn' meaning 'horn (of animal and musical)'.

http://www.howlsedhes.co.uk/cgi-bin/diskwe.pl

Interestingly the Sami language is thought, in Sami lore, to be a sung language. No-one knows how the language sounded for sure but everywhere animal-herding still involves whistles, clicks, sing-song sentences.

Although Sami reindeer aren't domesticated, herds have a trained leader, traditionally white (visibility, docility) and presumably herders have some means to communicate from a distance with the leader. Salt-licks are used to attract individual animals that are near enough. Horns are very much an instrument of organisation or rounding up whether for social, military or ceremonial occasions. The Scandinavian horn trumpet is called a lur [see Lurpak], perhaps the origin of lure (entice, trap).
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