Trade Secrets

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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby hvered » 2:05 pm

Yes, I remember the Time Team programme about Lindisfarne and thought at the time the island was oddly barren in archaeology.

The Romans couldn't have destroyed Celtic anything, the Age of Saints is supposed to have occurred in the 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th century, i.e. the Dark Ages, according to "records".


there are Anglo Saxon churches still standing in various areas

Are there? Could you give some examples? Most of them seem to consist of fragments of 'Saxon stone' embedded in Norman structures and/or 'Anglo-Saxon crosses', usually discovered in the 19th century and which can't by their nature be accurately dated.

Just last week I was reading someone's blog about "the Early Christian Ecclesiastical site of Donaghmore", hugely important to the Irish because of its association with their patron saint, St Patrick himself. The present St Patrick's church at Donaghmore was built in the 19th century.

The place-name Donaghmore means ‘The Great Church’. Here in the 5th century AD St Patrick is thought to have established a church.

So no conclusive evidence there. "Thought to have" is a sure give-away.

The Donaghmore High Cross or St Mac Erc’s Cross is a highly sculptured granite ring-head cross which is 10 feet high and is thought to date from the 9th or 10th century AD. ...The ring-head probably came from another similar cross. It was re-erected at the S. side of St Patrick’s Church in 1891, but probably not in its original position.

The decorative carvings are remarkably un-Anglo-Saxon. Rather 'modern' one might think.
Depicted on the cross are several Biblical characters and scenes, and also panels with figures and decorative interlacing. Biblical characters and scenes on (W. Face) are: Noah’s Ark, Adam & Eve and Moses & David. The cross-head (W. Face) shows Christ’s crucifixion. He has long outstretched arms. At each side of Christ there are figures maybe of Stephaton and Longinus, two thieves and soldiers. An angel around Christ’s head. The (N. Face) depicts David & Goliath and interlacing. An angel on the cross-head. The (E. Face) has David or The Judgment of Solomon (David plays his lyre for Saul). Also figures, Moses smites water from the rock, David with the head of Goliath, David slaying the lion, The Last Judgment and St Paul with a bird or beast. S. Face has David and Solomon holding a child or other up-side down and St Paul or maybe St Anthony in the Desert.

https://thejournalofantiquities.com/201 ... n-ireland/

Checking the background a little more fully, I read that the place name is said to be derived from Latin (dominicum) so the 5th century church is presumably a Roman, not Celtic, site that pre-dates "St Patrick". More conclusively, no archaeological remains of St Patrick's church have been found

The name Donaghmore is derived from the Irish Domhnach Mór ‘large, great church’. The word domhnach is a borrowing from Latin dominicum and its presence in place-names is traditionally associated with the Patrician mission of the 5th century. The founding of Donaghmore is attributed to both St Mac Erca and St Patrick (Atkinson's Dromore 230) and according to a number of medieval sources St Mac Erca was bishop of Donaghmore in the mid-5th century .... No trace of his church remains, however, and the earliest archaeological evidence of an ecclesiastical site here is a stone cross in the graveyard of the church of Ireland. This cross dates from 11th-12th century (ASCD 291) and gave name to the townland of Tullynacross, now called Glebe.

http://www.placenamesni.org/resultdetai ... ntry=17817
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby TisILeclerc » 7:06 pm

When I mentioned Roman I was a bit unclear.

I don't mean the ones in miniskirts with swords. I meant the ones in long dresses and swords.

The Roman Catholic church which to my mind is the Roman empire revamped. They even use the same Mithras religion which is why they stamped down on the Irish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donaghmore,_County_Tyrone

The Gaelic word for Sunday is DiDomhnaich. At least in Scottish catholic areas. Other places use La na Sabaid. I imagine the Irish would go for the first.


Dòmhnach

-aich, sm Sunday, see DiDòmhnaich. 2** rarely Church, great house. †3 Lord


http://faclair.com/ViewDictionaryEntry. ... D3BBDD5E7D

From Dwelly. Dom also means house and gall bladder. Presumably it is the root of domestic and may or may be from the Latin.

So basically it is Great Sunday unless the Irish use it more for church than the Scots. Eaglais would be the normal word for church I would have thought.

As for Saxon churches there is one near me which does indeed incorporate 'celtic' type carvings in the walls. They look as though they've been taken from a previous building and cemented in as they are out of sequence. It's very small and doesn't look like anything the Normans would have bothered with.

This site below seems to be keen on Anglo Saxon churches and gives full descriptions of what to look for.

http://www.anglo-saxon-churches.co.uk/intro.html
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby Boreades » 8:38 pm

TisILeclerc wrote:The Roman Catholic church which to my mind is the Roman empire revamped. They even use the same Mithras religion which is why they stamped down on the Irish.


Yes indeed.

As noted on Grael Britannia...

Worshippers of Mithras had a complex system of seven grades of initiation, with ritual meals. Initiates called themselves syndexioi, those "united by the handshake …. The Romans themselves regarded the mysteries as having Persian or Zoroastrian sources. Since the early 1970s, however, the dominant scholarship has noted dissimilarities between Persian Mithra-worship and the Roman Mithraic mysteries, and the mysteries of Mithras are now generally seen as a distinct product of the Roman Imperial religious world"


and

Sol Invictus Mithras may also have been the elite organisation for the same people (initially St Paul and then Josephus Flavius) who took Paulian Christianity to Rome, and from there, throughout the Roman Empire. As an aside, the last part is probably the part that most disturbs modern-day (Paulian) Christians. Even more so when it appears that the following Mithrac attributes pre-date Christianity.

• Mithra was born in December of the virgin Anahita.
• The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.
• He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
• He had 12 companions or "disciples."
• He performed miracles.
• As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
• Mithra ascending to heaven in his solar cart, with sun symbol
• He ascended to heaven.
• Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.
• Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him."
• He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
• His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
• His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
• Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers."
• Mithraism emphasized baptism.


and

Modern-day masons (in England) have three or four grades of initiation, with ritual meals (the "festive board"), and the handshakes. Mithras is a form of Mithra, apparently an “Old Persian” God. But Mitra is also a god in the Indian Rig Veda, and In Sanskrit, "mitra" means "friend" or "friendship". Which might equate to the masonic ideal of brothers or brethren. In Roman Mithras tradition, Mithras is depicted as being born from a rock. Which might equate in masonic symbology to the initiate as the rough stone (ashlar).


More here.
http://www.grael.uk/mithraic

Edit: Oh, and all that before the Synods (like the Synod of Whitby).
A nice seaside conference location?
Or the setting for a best-selling film?
"The Twylight Of The Celtic Saints".
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby hvered » 10:15 pm

What evidence is there that a) there was a Celtic church, with or without carvings, in the fifth century and b) the Roman church 'stamped down on the Irish'?
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby Boreades » 1:22 pm

hvered wrote: What evidence is there that a) there was a Celtic church, with or without carvings, in the fifth century and b) the Roman church 'stamped down on the Irish'?


Christian franchises

In Britain, many of us have only a hazy idea of how Christianity got established. For example:

Augustine of Canterbury (first third of the 6th century – probably 26 May 604) was a Benedictine monk who became the first Archbishop of Canterbury in the year 597. He is considered the "Apostle to the English" and a founder of the English Church.


But he wasn't the first Christian Bishop in Britain, he was the first Roman Catholic Christian Bishop. There were well-known Christians that pre-date him. For example, Pelagius, born c.354AD, was a British-born ascetic moralist, who became well known throughout ancient Rome. (Despite Harpo's poo-pooing)

Where did these other Christians come from?

To answer that question, we have first to understand and recognise that there were several competing groups, all with Judeao-Christian roots. These all produced theologies that differed from the Roman Mithraic Christian model that blinkers our perception of what a Christian is.

Mandaeans ...
http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/201 ... 8026.shtml

The Babylonian Elchasaites

Babylonian Elchasaites rejected Pauline Christianity, and were one of the first Gnostic Christian movements, with connections to Cathars and Bogomils.


Manichaeism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

During the third century, Mani founded a Dualist-Gnostic religion that drew on Christianity as well as Zoroastrianism and Buddhism, and his Manichaean faith endured through the end of the Middle Ages. ... Mani’s mother was Parthian, but his father, Patik, belonged to a very significant group called the Elchasaites. This name takes us back to very early forms of Jewish-Christian belief. ... This baptist sect was related to the Jewish-Christian Ebionites, and also, possibly, to the Jewish Essenes. ... The fourth century writer Epiphanius of Salamis discusses Elchasai in the context of a group of Jewish and Jewish-Christian sects, including Nazareans, Ossaeans (?Essenes) and Sampsaeans.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousben ... -baptists/

This is not an extinct religious group; it still exists in small communities in "Persia", Iraq and Iran.

It thrived between the third and seventh centuries, and at its height was one of the most widespread religions in the world. Manichaean churches and scriptures existed as far east as China and as far west as the Roman Empire. It was briefly the main rival to Christianity in the competition to replace classical paganism.


The term "Manichean" is widely applied (often used as a derogatory term) as an adjective to a philosophy of moral dualism, according to which a moral course of action involves a clear (or simplistic) choice between good and evil, or as a noun to people who hold such a view. See Pelanius.

Last, but not least, Coptic Christianity

The Egyptian Church, which is more than 1,900 years old, and most likely the oldest Christian church in the world, traditionally believed to be founded by St Mark at around AD 42. ... The Catechetical School of Alexandria is the oldest catechetical school in the world. St. Jerome records that the Christian School of Alexandria was founded by Saint Mark himself ... Many scholars such as Jerome visited the school of Alexandria to exchange ideas and to communicate directly with its scholars. The scope of this school was not limited to theological subjects; science, mathematics and humanities were also taught there. The question-and-answer method of commentary began there ... Christian monasticism was born in Egypt and was instrumental in the formation of the Coptic Orthodox Church character of submission, simplicity and humility

Ref : Coptic Orthodox Church

This is significant; the Coptic Church traditions maintain that:

It is known in the ecclesiastical history of the Church of Alexandria that the Church had sent missionaries in the 3rd or 4th century to the Celtic lands, especially monastics. It is also known within the Celtic tradition, especially in Ireland, that the foundation of the monastic system among the Celts was either based in portion on or inspired by the Egyptian monastic system, and there are many traces of Alexandrine theology embedded in Celtic theology.


I'm in correspondence with folks in The Church of Alexandria in Britain, awaiting clarification on the "It is known ... missionaries in the 3rd or 4th century to the Celtic lands".
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby hvered » 1:42 pm

"It is known ... missionaries in the 3rd or 4th century to the Celtic lands".

Known by who? Has anyone found any trace of Coptic Christianity in Ireland?

There is no trace of Coptic Christianity predating the Roman colonisation of Egypt unless you believe the account of Eusebius aka 'the Father of Church History' (bit too reminiscent of Bede for my comfort)

That's Eusebius of Caesarea, writing about 300 years later than the purported foundation of the Coptic Church.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby Boreades » 4:43 pm

hvered wrote:Has anyone found any trace of Coptic Christianity in Ireland? There is no trace of Coptic Christianity predating the Roman colonisation of Egypt unless you believe the account of Eusebius aka 'the Father of Church History' (bit too reminiscent of Bede for my comfort) That's Eusebius of Caesarea, writing about 300 years later than the purported foundation of the Coptic Church.


Some mishtake Shirley?

Given that ...
a) every one of the various Christian franchises has a Creation Myth peculiar to them, picked to pieces by the other franchises
and
b) 300 years must be irrelevant (in a TME sense) because TME folk keep telling us about the Centuries Of Darkness
(i.e. 100s of years that didn't exist)
... who cares about the evidence?

It's all forged anyway.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby TisILeclerc » 7:31 pm

The position of Copts has been exercising Catholic minds recently.

First, are Copts actually heretics? After the Council of Chalcedon in 451 the Copts, with other Oriental churches, were cast out as monophysite heretics. As so often happens, the argument was more about vocabulary than substance. The Copts formally rejected monophysitism, but they explained their orthodox view of the two natures of Christ with a vocabulary different to Chalcedon’s.


http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/comment ... s-martyrs/

This may be a result of let's get back together for safety. Or perhaps let's get back together and do as you're told this time.

Or a mixture of both.

I expect the pope to make an appearance at Stonehenge one of these days. His outfit will go well with the hippies there.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby Boreades » 8:32 pm

TisILeclerc wrote:I expect the pope to make an appearance at Stonehenge one of these days. His outfit will go well with the hippies there.


I concur, and expect that the Glastonbury Festival will be on the itinerary as well. It would be a true convergence of the True Believers (Climate Change is an optional extra).
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby Mick Harper » 2:29 pm

So it looks like the Romans did for them all and no doubt destroyed their buildings and presence in the islands as if to show who was the boss.

Whenever you read something like this (i.e. every weekday and matinees on Sunday) always intone the following
1. Destroying buildings, if anything, tends to preserve the archaeology
2. Archaeology is impossible to destroy (unless you specifically tried and even then...)
3. Therefore if there is no archaeology there cannot have been anything there in the first place.
4. If historians insist there was it must be because somebody (sometimes the historians themselves) wants them to believe there was something there.
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