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Re: Reverse engineering

PostPosted: 8:58 am
by TisILeclerc
Ancestry website gives 'rath' as a Germanic name implying 'advice' or 'counsel' as well as land clearing.

'Rath Name Meaning
German and Jewish (Ashkenazic): descriptive epithet for a wise person or counselor, from Middle High German rat ‘counsel’, ‘advice’, German Rat ‘counsel’, ‘advice’, also ‘stock’, ‘supply’.German (also Swiss Räth): from a short form of any of the various Germanic compound personal names formed with rad, rat ‘counsel’, ‘advice’ as the first element.German (Rhineland): habitational name from any of various places called Rath, which derives from Middle Low German roden, raden ‘to clear land for cultivation’.Irish: in some cases a habitational name from a place called Rath; in County Derry it is a reduced form of McIlwraith (see McIlrath).'

We still get Rathaus in German for town hall.

On the other hand Wiktionary gives us the Irish meaning

'(historical) A walled enclosure, especially in Ireland; a ringfort built sometime between the Iron Age and the Viking Age'

Which may well be from the same source. The fairies were famous for their raths.

'Fairy forts (also known as raths from the Irish, referring to an earthen mound) are the remains of lios (ringforts), hillforts or other circular dwellings in Ireland.[1] From (possibly) late Iron Age to early Christian times, the island's occupants built circular structures with earth banks or ditches. These were sometimes topped with wooden palisades, and wooden framed buildings. As the dwellings were not durable, in many cases only vague circular marks remain in the landscape.[2] Raths and lios are found in all parts of Ireland'

Given the similarity in meaning between the gaelic and nordic worlds it could well point to areas where the two cultures came together as part of the trading empire.

Re: Reverse engineering

PostPosted: 11:46 am
by hvered
Rat is widespread enough etymologically speaking as to indicate a degree of co-operation, understanding or, as you suggest, a trading connection.

'Rod' is a traditional measurement, but also meant 'land clearing' apparently. There may be a correlation but it's murky. Most 'rat' words are translated as "scrape, scratch, gnaw", though whether this particular sense came about because of the common rat or vice versa isn't explored. We have ratify, to consolidate or firm up, verify, etc., which is supposed to be derived from a Latin term ratus meaning 'fixed, certain' and would convey the sense of an accepted measurement, to be borrowed by Roman engineers if not already known.

The town of Arad, on the edge of the Negev Desert, is the site of an ancient citadel or garrison called Tel Arad but Arad isn't a Hebrew word. (In Occitan, rat can also be written garri, but this is presumably a coincidence, though there used to be a Jewish population in Septimania). The nearest equivalent to 'arad' seems to be erod, the Phoenician word for snake according to etymonline [as in Rhodos or 'Snake Island', "for the serpents which anciently infested the island" in etymonline's words], which recalls the snakes, and of course the rod or staff, of Hermes.

Re: Reverse engineering

PostPosted: 12:33 pm
by TisILeclerc
The etymological online dictionary says there is doubt about the origin of the word rat and suggests it may be Germanic in origin and transferred from those languages into the Romance languages.

'late Old English ræt "rat," of uncertain origin. Similar words are found in Celtic (Gaelic radan), Romanic (Italian ratto, Spanish rata, French rat) and Germanic (Old Saxon ratta; Dutch rat; German Ratte, dialectal Ratz; Swedish råtta, Danish rotte) languages, but connection is uncertain and origin unknown. In all this it is very much like cat.

Perhaps from Vulgar Latin *rattus, but Weekley thinks this is of Germanic origin, "the animal having come from the East with the race-migrations" and the word passing thence to the Romanic languages. American Heritage and Tucker connect Old English ræt to Latin rodere and thus PIE *red- "to scrape, scratch, gnaw," source of rodent (q.v.). Klein says there is no such connection and suggests a possible cognate in Greek rhine "file, rasp." Weekley connects them with a question mark and Barnhart writes, "the relationship to each other of the Germanic, Romance, and Celtic words for rat is uncertain." OED says "probable" the rat word spread from Germanic to Romanic, but takes no position on ultimate origin. ' ... hmode=none

The same source has 'rad' being the old English for road. Certainly in Gaelic the word is 'rathad', the 'th' more or less disappears in pronunciation. Perhaps the rathad was the link between the various raths?

And is also Germanic and connected with 'ride' and 'raid'.

'Arad' and 'garri' - The gaelic for 'garden' is 'garradh'. It was originally the wall or dyke around the enclosure but by extension became the enclosure within. There is also a word 'arad' which means strong or brave.

Re: Reverse engineering

PostPosted: 7:31 am
by hvered
In the Dwelli Gaelic dictionary the primary meaning of rath is 'good luck, great fortune, prosperity' and its associations encompass things like a circle, dyke, ditch, fort, in-between space and so on. Sounds like the Spanish 'red' (final 'd' in Spanish is 'th') which means a net or network, also trap, snare. These meanings indicate hunting terms and a certain organisation or collaboration. Either way, it seems to be ambivalent, perhaps depending on who's benefiting from the network.

On another tack, I went past a Red Cow pub and wondered if it was a lucky sign. There are various legends about cows deciding where a stone should be placed which kind of makes sense as drovers were the main beneficiaries of the 'roads'. Judaism goes much further, claiming that only a pure red cow, without blemishes, can remove sin. No-one knows why despite all the learned references to ritual purification. Hermes himself was depicted wearing red boots or sandals and one of his feats was to steal Apollo's red cows, cattle of the sun. Drovers needed secure passage and were presumably expected to foot the bill in whatever form of currency was appropriate.

Re: Reverse engineering

PostPosted: 12:43 pm
by Boreades
hvered wrote:Judaism goes much further, claiming that only a pure red cow, without blemishes, can remove sin. No-one knows why despite all the learned references to ritual purification.

Yes, what is all this fuss about "red heifers"?

This :
Says :
The Jerusalem-based Temple Institute has taken on the goal of rebuilding the Third Jewish Temple, regarded by Jews and Christians as a precursor to the coming of the Messiah. The plan is guaranteed to provoke world conflict, since the Islamic Dome of the Rock now sits on the presumed Temple site…The organization posted a video this month showing what appears to be a perfect red heifer that is being raised at an unidentified location in the United States. ... “In truth, the fate of the entire world depends on the red heifer,” the institute says. ...Finding a red heifer is like finding a needle in a hay stack .... Jewish group like The Temple Institute believe that the fate of the world depends on upon a red heifer being found and then sacrificed.

I really don't understand this; anyone who has lived in Devon will have seen countless red/brown cows, especially in North Devon.


'Ooo you lookin' at?
Git orf moi laaand.

Re: Reverse engineering

PostPosted: 1:08 pm
by Boreades
Does this connect?

Ratha (Sanskrit rátha, Avestan raθa) is the Indo-Iranian term for a spoked-wheel chariot or a cart of antiquity.

The Rigvedic word rá-tha does not denote a war-chariot like those of Andronovo, Egypt, Greece, and Rome. The word is from √ṛ ‘go’ giving primary rá-tha ‘a goer, car, vehicle’. Similar formations exist with the suffix -tha: ártha ‘goal’, ukthá ‘saying’, ǵāthā ‘song’ etc. The rigvedic ratha is discribed as pṛthu ‘broad’ 1.123.1; bṛhat ‘tall, big’ 6.61.13; variṣṭha ‘widest’ 6.47.9. It has space not for 1 only or 2 (i.e. the driver and the warrior with his spear and bow) but for 3: it is said to be trivandhurá (1.41.2; 7.71.4) and then to carry 8 aṣṭāvandhurá (10.53.7)[1]

It derives from a collective *ret-h- to a Proto-Indo-European word *rot-o- for "wheel" that also resulted in Latin rota and is also known from Germanic, Celtic and Baltic. The Sanskrit terms for the wagon pole, harness, yoke and wheel have cognates in other branches of Indo-European.

Re: Reverse engineering

PostPosted: 2:29 pm
by hvered
Rath is translated (by the authoritative Dwelli) as 'artificial mound or barrow' which fits 'our' Rat Island. Connected to Priddy's Hard, Gosport (at low tide), it is more usually called Burrow Island.

Re: Reverse engineering

PostPosted: 11:44 pm
by Boreades
Didn't you say that earlier? Or did I miss something?

Re: Reverse engineering

PostPosted: 8:56 am
by hvered
It could just be a coincidence but animals seemingly associated with megalithic structures are a bad lot... crows and ravens, serpents and worms, dragons and bulls. And rats. Rats are known to be intelligent and surprisingly popular as pets so it may be worth considering whether the rat is also a 'Megalithic' animal.

Re: Reverse engineering

PostPosted: 1:12 pm
by Mick Harper
These 'twin' animals eg rabbits and hares, where it is supposed that one is the Megalithic domesticated version of the other, would suggest that it is the mouse (the smaller one) that is the Megalithic one. Both have 'white' versions, don't they?