Who Built The Stones?

Current topics

Re: Who Built The Stones?

Postby Mick Harper » 10:32 am

Oh, come on, Borry, think it through. I do not normally indulge in semantics. Of course the Church rested on the secular arm whenever it could but we are dealing with a time when either physical force was absent or it was fractured. In fact it was the Arians (for example) that had the physical force because most of the post-Roman 'barbarian' regimes were in fact Arians.

But in any case the Catholic Church is surely sufficiently versed in history to know that the secular arm is a very slender, all-too-temporary, reed to rely on. Ideology, a monopoly ideology, is a much safer long-term bet. As I think history demonstrates.
Mick Harper
 
Posts: 872
Joined: 10:28 am

Re: Who Built The Stones?

Postby Boreades » 9:24 pm

More Dogmaels

In "The History of St Dogmaels Abbey" by Emily Pritchard, she says that :

“They (the Tironensians) now worked night and day building their cloisters; they wore a monk's habit; but it was different to that of other orders, being made of sheep's skin, owing to their great poverty.”


If it was great poverty, it was a temporary one, as the Monks of Tiron soon accumulated great wealth.

in any case, Brethren should take note of the mention of sheep's skin. The choice of sheep's skin may have been a very practical one, as a sheep's skin, or a leather apron, provides much more protection to a stone worker than an ordinary monk's habit would or could. The Cistercian monks, who did not trouble themselves with manual labour like this, would have no need of sheep's skin habits.

I have consulted with an operative mason. He says:

It was I suspect a question of practicality. Having used a tool apron for many years, I chose a soft leather, easy to buckle and pliable although of a modern design, to fit power tools etc. It did the same job. You only have to try and kneel with a long robe or a thick leather apron. It just does not work. You want to carry your tools and have them ready even when you are in a stupid position. It just makes sense.


So, Emily Pritchard is quite right to note the distinction, she is just confused as to its practical meaning for the Tironensians. The esoteric meaning came later. The leather apron later acquired a symbolism all of its own, as the Tironensians became the originators of operative and speculative Freemasonry in Scotland, and Freemasons ever since have worn an apron.

There was also a much earlier association; ritual aprons were also used in ancient Egypt. More on that later.
Boreades
 
Posts: 2014
Joined: 2:35 pm

Re: Who Built The Stones?

Postby Boreades » 9:48 am

There can't be many abbeys that have been founded by a riot.

After a dispute and riot in 1132 at the Benedictine house of St Mary's Abbey, in York, 13 monks were expelled (among them Saint Robert of Newminster) and, after unsuccessfully attempting to return to the early 6th-century Rule of St Benedict, were taken into the protection of Thurstan, Archbishop of York.


Eh uup, maybe it's a Yorkshire thing??

In 1146 an angry mob, displeased with Murdac's role in opposing the election of William FitzHerbert to the archbishop of York, attacked the abbey and burnt down all but the church and some surrounding buildings.


Yorkshire Abbey Lines. This is Bishop Boycott speaking. I'll say what I bloody like.

Down to business..

In the first half of the 13th century Fountains increased in reputation and prosperity under the next three abbots, John of York (1203–1211), John of Hessle (1211–1220) and John of Kent (1220–1247). They were burdened with an inordinate amount of administrative duties and increasing demands for money in taxation and levies but managed to complete another massive expansion of the abbey's buildings. This included enlarging the church and building an infirmary. In the second half of the 13th century the abbey was in more straitened circumstances. It was presided over by eleven abbots, and became financially unstable largely due to forward selling its wool crop,

etc

I'm told that selling futures in the wool market was quite normal even in the 1200's, it was just that Fountain Abbey took it to extremes and came unstuck.

Chief amongst these is the raft of contracts for the advance purchase of wool entered into by both monastic institutions and lay producers, who bargained for the sale of the produce of their flocks for up to twenty years in advance with mostly foreign and particularly Italian (more specifically Florentine and Lucchese) merchant societies often in return for huge sums of liquid capital.


http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/cata ... 417&ss=exc

Business might have been shaky, but you can still buy the franchise...

When Marmaduke Huby died he was succeeded by William Thirsk who was accused by the royal commissioners of immorality and inadequacy and dismissed from the abbacy and replaced by Marmaduke Bradley, a monk of the abbey who had reported Thirsk's supposed offences, testified against him and offered the authorities six hundred marks for the abbacy


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountains_Abbey

I'm now wondering who built Fountain Abbey. I don't think it was the wooden Cistercians.

The monks subjected themselves to Clairvaux Abbey, in Burgundy which was under the rule of St Bernard. Under the guidance of Geoffrey of Ainai, a monk sent from Clairvaux, the group learned how to celebrate the seven Canonical Hours and were shown how to construct wooden buildings in accordance with Cistercian practice.


Did they sub-contract the job to proper builders and stone masons?
Boreades
 
Posts: 2014
Joined: 2:35 pm

Re: Who Built The Stones?

Postby Boreades » 10:25 am

Tisi might be able to guide us on all things to do with sheep in Yorkshire.

But mention of "foreign and particularly Italian (more specifically Florentine and Lucchese) merchant societies often in return for huge sums of liquid capital" reminds me that these were part of international trading empires that preferred to by-pass local rules and taxes.
Boreades
 
Posts: 2014
Joined: 2:35 pm

Re: Who Built The Stones?

Postby TisILeclerc » 12:27 pm

Tisi might be able to guide us on all things to do with sheep in Yorkshire.


Roast with garlic and rosemary. Roast potatoes, Yorkshire puddings, vegetables of whatever takes your fancy and as a flourish mint sauce. Plenty of gravy as well.

Quite easy really.
TisILeclerc
 
Posts: 790
Joined: 11:40 am

Re: Who Built The Stones?

Postby Boreades » 3:24 pm

Just because it's Sunday lunchtime I suppose

But what about the long distance sheep herding?
Boreades
 
Posts: 2014
Joined: 2:35 pm

Re: Who Built The Stones?

Postby hvered » 3:32 pm

Boreades wrote: ...mention of "foreign and particularly Italian (more specifically Florentine and Lucchese) merchant societies often in return for huge sums of liquid capital" reminds me that these were part of international trading empires that preferred to by-pass local rules and taxes.

Not long ago, looking at the Premonstratensians, it was clear that even relatively minor orders had transnational connections. For instance, the Abbey of Beauchief in Derbyshire was in contact not only with other Premonstratensian houses but with other orders across Europe

The Premonstratensian Order was singularly homogeneous, and kept up through the general chapters at Prémontré, and in other ways, a considerable knowledge of and communion with houses outside their own nationality or province. In this obituary, in addition to the names of nine of their own abbots, five Scotch and twenty-three English abbots of other houses, the Beauchief canons were expected to commemorate thirty-five foreign abbots of monasteries in France, Germany, Holland, Spain, Westphalia, and Bohemia. The families of the founders, and their successive patrons, were naturally commemorated, and they also bore in mind the founders of Welbeck, Dale, Lavendon, Langley, and several other houses.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/derbs/vol2/pp63-69
hvered
 
Posts: 851
Joined: 10:22 pm

Re: Who Built The Stones?

Postby TisILeclerc » 12:51 am

We are faced with a problem.

We know that our ancestors were busy chipping flints and eating berries. Unless they were also hunting deer.

We know that after the ice age they moved north from their refuges wherever they were.

We know that a variety of cultures and peoples came later.

I am happy to be called a hunter gatherer. Or at least the descendant of these people. I am ignorant.

But we also know that at Orkney they were building huge stone structures. Not one, but many. And all perfectly formed.

We can explain the buildings because we understand the need for buildings. Circles are a bit more problematic. Why would they do that?

And they did it all the way down to the south coast of England.

Did my ancestors watch them as they were roasting venison and wonder what it was all about? I don't know but I can't see them building anything. Although they may have supplied the builders with food. Someone had to.

So we have the hunters and gatherers who were here until the farmers came and the builders.

And how did the builders build? We don't know. Even the clever people don't know. They don't know who, how, why or anything else.

And all this was going on just after the ice age. Where did these people come from and where did they get their knowledge and expertise. Anyone can catch a rabbit but not anyone can build Stonehenge for example. And how many people were there?

According to the experts there can't have been many people. It's not logical.

What we should be examining is what was happening before the ice age. Assuming we can. Because the knowledge of these people could never have been developed while struggling for survival under those conditions.
TisILeclerc
 
Posts: 790
Joined: 11:40 am

Re: Who Built The Stones?

Postby Boreades » 12:36 pm

TisILeclerc wrote:And how did the builders build? We don't know. Even the clever people don't know. They don't know who, how, why or anything else.


Here's a modern version.

We invite you to tour our sculpture garden in stone, built by one man, Edward Leedskalnin. From 1923 to 1951, Ed single-handedly and secretly carved over 1,100 tons of coral rock, and his unknown process has created one of the world's most mysterious accomplishments. Open every day, the Coral Castle Museum welcomes visitors from around the world to explore this enchanting South Florida destination.

To this day, no one knows how Ed created the Coral Castle. Built under the cover of night and in secret, at a time when there were no modern construction conveniences, Ed would only say that he knew "the secret of the pyramids." When he died, his secrets died with him, and to this day scientists and thinkers still debate Ed's methods.

What makes Ed’s work remarkable is the fact that he was just over 5 feet tall and weighed only 100 pounds. In this part of Florida, the coral in some areas can be up to 4,000 feet thick. Incredibly, he cut and moved huge coral blocks using only hand tools. He had acquired some skills working in lumber camps and came from a family of stonemasons in Latvia. He drew on this knowledge and strength to cut and move these blocks.

In 1940, after the carvings were in place, Ed finished erecting the walls. The coral walls weigh 125 pounds per cubic foot. Each section of wall is 8 feet tall, 4 feet wide, 3 feet thick, and weighs more than 58 tons!

When questioned about how he moved the blocks of coral, Ed would only reply that he understood the laws of weight and leverage well.


http://coralcastle.com/
Boreades
 
Posts: 2014
Joined: 2:35 pm

Re: Who Built The Stones?

Postby Boreades » 12:37 pm

TisILeclerc wrote:And how did the builders build? We don't know. Even the clever people don't know. They don't know who, how, why or anything else.


Here's a modern version.

We invite you to tour our sculpture garden in stone, built by one man, Edward Leedskalnin. From 1923 to 1951, Ed single-handedly and secretly carved over 1,100 tons of coral rock, and his unknown process has created one of the world's most mysterious accomplishments. Open every day, the Coral Castle Museum welcomes visitors from around the world to explore this enchanting South Florida destination.

To this day, no one knows how Ed created the Coral Castle. Built under the cover of night and in secret, at a time when there were no modern construction conveniences, Ed would only say that he knew "the secret of the pyramids." When he died, his secrets died with him, and to this day scientists and thinkers still debate Ed's methods.

What makes Ed’s work remarkable is the fact that he was just over 5 feet tall and weighed only 100 pounds. In this part of Florida, the coral in some areas can be up to 4,000 feet thick. Incredibly, he cut and moved huge coral blocks using only hand tools. He had acquired some skills working in lumber camps and came from a family of stonemasons in Latvia. He drew on this knowledge and strength to cut and move these blocks.

In 1940, after the carvings were in place, Ed finished erecting the walls. The coral walls weigh 125 pounds per cubic foot. Each section of wall is 8 feet tall, 4 feet wide, 3 feet thick, and weighs more than 58 tons!

When questioned about how he moved the blocks of coral, Ed would only reply that he understood the laws of weight and leverage well.

http://coralcastle.com


Image
Boreades
 
Posts: 2014
Joined: 2:35 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Index

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests