Pub Crawl

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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby Boreades » 11:09 pm

hvered wrote:
The Gnostic social-religious movement and doctrine originated in the time of Peter I of Bulgaria (927–969), alleged in the modern day to be a reaction against state and clerical oppression of the Byzantine church. In spite of all measures of repression, it remained strong and popular until the fall of the Second Bulgarian Empire in the end of the 14th century.

Amazing. Four hundred years of fighting, apparently successfully, the most powerful city of the time and then....what?

More seriously, it looks the 2nd BE had become mincemeat in the grinder between the Byzantine and Ottoman empires.

The Church in Bulgaria also tried to extirpate Bogomilism. Several thousand went in the army of Alexios I Komnenos against the Norman, Robert Guiscard; but, deserting the emperor, many of them (1085) were thrown into prison

Taking on the Normans? Not usually a good outcome, as our Welsh cousins might say. ... mpire#Fall
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby Boreades » 11:16 pm

We might be forgiven for forgetting the Normans were bigging it all over Europe before they bothered with us.

Robert Guiscard (c. 1015 – 17 July 1085) was a Norman adventurer remembered for the conquest of southern Italy and Sicily. Robert was born into the Hauteville family in Normandy, went on to become Count of Apulia and Calabria (1057–1059), and then Duke of Apulia and Calabria and Duke of Sicily (1059–1085).

His sobriquet, in contemporary Latin Viscardus and Old French Viscart, is often rendered "the Resourceful", "the Cunning", "the Wily", "the Fox", or "the Weasel". In Italian sources he is often Roberto il Guiscardo or Roberto d'Altavilla (from Robert de Hauteville).

From 999 to 1042 the Normans in Italy, coming first as pilgrims, were mainly mercenaries serving at various times the Byzantines and a number of Lombard nobles. The first of the independent Norman Lords was Rainulf Drengot who established himself in the fortress of Aversa becoming Count of Aversa and Duke of Gaeta.
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby hvered » 3:16 pm

The Norman bullies are apparently to blame for the absence of 'robust native culture'. As a result, in England for instance, every Anglo-Saxon cathedral was 'almost totally rebuilt'. Something of the sort of historical obliteration that Mick's New Book details.
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby TisILeclerc » 3:25 pm

Everything was rebuilt. Something that happens quite a lot. The natives were useless so we had to do everything for them.

I was told at primary school that the Anglo Saxons couldn't build in stone. Everything they did was in wood which is why there is nothing left of them.

It was only when the Normans came that they brought the skills needed to build in stone.

Five minutes walk from me is an old stone church, post Anglo Saxon obviously. Yet built into the walls all over the place are 'celtic' or 'Anglo Saxon' squiggly sculptures and carvings. Upside down and in the oddest of places. It's obvious that there was an old stone church there which was demolished and recycled. Plenty of carved 'celtic' stones lying about the church as well where they don't quite know where to put them.
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby Boreades » 10:50 pm

Yes, we see the same kind of recycling round our village.

The Roman Villas being dug up have got pre-Roman "Celtic" stone stuff being used as foundations.

The ex-Priory (pre-Norman) site and walls along the village high street have got lumps of "Roman" concrete in them.

The "Norman" church was built on the site of the "existing" (presumably pre-Norman) church.

And so on.
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby Boreades » 9:16 pm

TisILeclerc wrote:
Although Bogomils regarded themselves as "Trinitarian", anathemas against Bogomils (circa 1027) charge Bogomils with rejection of the Trinity. Its followers refused to pay taxes, to work in serfdom, or to fight in conquering wars. They ignored the feudal social system, which was interpreted by their enemies as suggesting disorder if not the destruction of the state and church.

I've been reminded of Tisi's mention of Trinitarian by a curiosity in his own neighbourhood. A friendly Templar historian visiting us has mentioned the Strange Case of Claro Wapentake

It's not a person, it's an old name for Knaresborough

Robert of Knaresborough, son of the mayor of York, was the hermit living in a cave. But (it says) with servants.

It says:
Before his death St Robert established an order of Trinitarian Friars at Knaresborough Priory, but he warned them that when his time came the monks of Fountains abbey would try to carry his body away to their own establishment, he urged his followers to resist them, which they did and so St Robert was buried in his chapel cut from the steep rocky crags by the river, where it was said that a medicinal oil flowed from his tomb and pilgrims came from near and far to be healed by this.

This is the funny bit. My friend says she's never heard of Trinitarian Friars in Britain apart from this case. I'd never heard of them at all. But Trinitarian Friars were supposed to have been busy elsewhere:

The founding-intention for the Order was the ransom of Christians held captive by non-Christians, a consequence of crusading and of pirating along the Mediterranean coast of Europe

The Order was founded by John of Matha.

St. John founded the Trinitarians to go to the slave markets, buy the Christian slaves and set them free. To carry out this plan, the Trinitarians needed large amounts of money.

Why Knaresborough? Was it a centre for slave trading in Yorkshire? Or were there slave markets nearby?

I'm not so bothered about the monks of Fountains Abbey. That was founded because of a riot of its monks elsewhere. So clearly known in their own time as a rough lot. No wonder if St Robert suspected them of being body robbers, or likely to grab his valuable saintly relics while his body was still warm.
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