Pub Crawl

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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby TisILeclerc » 2:21 pm

He thanks you for your concern and the link to Tudor forgeries which he found after a great deal of effort.

He said he was always suspicious of that lot since reading The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey.

He also said Tiswas.

When I asked him what that meant he said it was an abbreviation.

He said he didn't mention extant examples of ancient Celtic languages although he wasn't sure how ancient was ancient.

So he had another look at the article and couldn't find examples or mention there of ancient Celtic languages although there was plenty to say about medieval English and Welsh and the various arguments flitting about.

He then said that Tiswas means 'As 'twas 'tis or as 'tis 'twas' which explained was a religious reference to As it was in the beginning or something like that from an ancient religious text he once read.

Or Tiswas for short.
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby TisILeclerc » 9:25 am

I came across a reference in the grauniad today regarding Comrade King Edward whose bones were claimed by the Russian Orthodox church and given to their Greek brothers in arms for safe keeping.

By the way his mother may have been not a swan but a white duck.

Together these various accounts suggest that Edward's mother was probably a noblewoman named Æthelflæd, surnamed Candida or Eneda—"the White" or "White Duck"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_the_Martyr

In time, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia was victorious and placed the relics in a church in Brookwood Cemetery in Woking, with the enshrinement ceremony occurring in September 1984.[50] The St Edward Brotherhood of monks was organized there as well.[50] The church is now named St Edward the Martyr Orthodox Church, and it is under the jurisdiction of a traditionalist Greek Orthodox community.

In the Orthodox Church, St Edward is ranked as a Passion-bearer, a type of saint who accepts death out of love for Christ.[50] Edward was never officially canonized,[52] but he is also regarded as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion.[50][53] His feast day is celebrated on 18 March, the day of his murder. The Orthodox Church commemorates him a second time each year on 3 September and commemorates the translation of his relics into Orthodox possession on 13 February.


He seems to have been a bit of a mystery all round but why would the Russians want him and why did a high court judge let them have the bones instead of the Catholics or Church of England?
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby Boreades » 11:10 am

Looks like it was another family feud.

His (Edward's) remains were buried in a secret place in the abbey's grounds during the Reformation, for safe keeping. They were dug up again in 1931 and that was when the trouble started. The strife has involved the High Court and even the Attorney General's office.

Two brothers, members of a family that then owned the abbey grounds, revived the spirit of internecine feuding in which Edward had died. The elder brother, the late John Wilson Claridge, actor and cinema proprietor, claimed the king's remains belonged to him. Although not religious himself, he wanted the relics to be venerated, and when the bishops of Winchester, Exeter and Plymouth successively spurned his offer of the bones, John decided to present them to a couple of Russian Orthodox converts looking to set up a new order.

"We heard that the relics were being held in a bank vault and we felt it was inappropriate," says Father Alexis, a trainee estate agent before his conversion. He raised money to buy the old chapel of rest at Brookwood and went on to found the St Edward's Brotherhood.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/monks ... 38354.html

It doesn't say why the bishops of Winchester, Exeter and Plymouth didn't want dem bones. But perfect timing for a new religious order in the market for some nearly new relics. One careful owner, low pilgrimage mileage.
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby Mick Harper » 8:00 pm

Definitely worth a sniff. Plymouth is only a Catholic episcopate. Is the Russian Orthodox church trying for a major rebuild outside Russia (it's already pretty huge inside Russia apparently) post Communism. They may see teaming up with the Anglicans as an anti-Catholic front. They specially hate the Catholics because of the Uniate Church of Ukraine.
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby Boreades » 10:04 pm

A lovely couple have just returned to our umble habode singing the praises of Edington Priory and the local microbrewery, the Three Daggers, and their fine ales. That caused me some anxious neuron bumping. Haven't we mentioned Edington on TME? Sure enough we have, it was the "Saints and Sinners Trail".

The four churches are All Saints’ in Alton Priors, St Leonard’s in Sutton Veny, St Mary’s in Old Dilton and St John the Baptist in Inglesham. With The Red Lion Freehouse in Pewsey, The Beckford Arms in Fonthill Gifford, The Three Daggers in Edington and Stanton House Hotel in Stanton Fitzwarren.

Not sure where the The Three Daggers name comes from, but it might be from the way the locals treat unwelcome visitors.

During Jack Cade's rebellion in 1450, William Ayscough, Bishop of Salisbury and confessor to Henry VI, was forced to flee Salisbury. Seeking refuge in the church at Edington, he was discovered on 29 June, dragged from the high altar during mass and murdered in the fields outside the church.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edington_Priory

Something we missed at the time, it turns out that Edington Priory was founded by yet another obscure set of monks. The Brothers of Penitence.

The Brothers of Penitence or Fratres Saccati were an Augustinian order also known as Boni Homines, Bonshommes or Bones-homes, with houses in Spain, France and England. They were also known as the "Bluefriars" on account of the colour of their robes.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Penitence

The Order of Grandmont, founded by St. Stephen of Muret (b. 1046, d. 1124) for an austere order of eremitical friars professing the rule of St. Augustine (though they have sometimes been claimed also by the Benedictines). Towards the end of the twelfth century they possessed more than sixty housed, principally in Acquitaine, Anjou, and Normandy. The kings of England (then rules of Normandy) were great benefactors of these friars, who were known as the Bonshommes of Grandmont from the earliest times. The oldest house of the order was at Vincennes (founded by Louis VII, in 1164); and this more than four centuries later came into the possession of the Minims, who were hence known afterwards as Bonshommes.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02672b.htm

I had to look it up. eremitical = hermits.
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby Mick Harper » 10:21 pm

Let's not forget the other 'good men'
In Cathar texts, the terms "Good Men" (Bons Hommes) or "Good Christians" are the common terms of self-identification
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby Boreades » 11:47 pm

Good that you mentioned the Cathars.

How did they get started, and why did the folks in Rome take such a dislike? It might have been the Manichaeism wot started it.

Manichaeism taught an elaborate dualistic cosmology describing the struggle between a good, spiritual world of light, and an evil, material world of darkness. Through an ongoing process which takes place in human history, light is gradually removed from the world of matter and returned to the world of light whence it came. Its beliefs were based on local Mesopotamian gnostic and religious movements.

Manichaeism was quickly successful and spread far through the Aramaic-Syriac speaking regions. It thrived between the third and seventh centuries, and at its height was one of the most widespread religions in the world. Manichaean churches and scriptures existed as far east as China and as far west as the Roman Empire. It was briefly the main rival to Christianity in the competition to replace classical paganism.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

Celtic Christianity?
Pelagius?
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby hvered » 8:35 am

I came across the Grandmont brethren when reading about Orange in southern France (in connection with the Tironians and the Burgundians, owners of the province of Orange).

The Grandmont Order is the most austere and claims to be the earliest hermit-monk order though one senses a certain jostling for position. http://grandmont.pagesperso-orange.fr/English_site.html

The Bonihommes at least in England were not very bon. Edington priory was the daughter house of Ashridge, the Priory of the Precious Blood, on the Hertfordshire border near Berkhamsted Castle. The Ashridge monks obtained a phial of Christ's precious blood and did very well out of it visitor-wise though they were quite generous, sharing the phial's contents with the Abbey of Hailes.

By the fourteenth century it wasn't so easy for the Bonhommes as Victoria County History tells it

In 1307 the rector and brethren of Ashridge received the custody of the hospital of St. Thomas of Acon in London (fn. 12); but in 1315 it was alleged that they had obtained this by falsehood and suppression of the truth, during the absence of the master, and it was taken away from them. (fn. 13) They were cited at the same time to appear before the pope in person or by proxy to clear themselves of this charge, and to bring all papers relating to the suit between them and the master of the hospital. (fn. 14) It does not appear that they recovered possession of it.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/bu ... /pp386-390
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby Mick Harper » 8:39 am

1307 is when another lot got hauled in front of the Pope. The Knights Templars.
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Re: Pub Crawl

Postby hvered » 9:20 am

Exactly so. 1307 is when the Knights Hospitaller took over. Looks like some cleaning up was judged necessary.
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