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Re: Book & site list

Postby Boreades » 10:00 pm

Mick Harper wrote:New to me! Very new. How sure are you? None of this is mentioned in I, Claudius/Claudius the God which though fiction is usually based on sources. There's no way Graves wouldn't have used this if he knew about it.

The thing is, we all know it's a minefield of conflicting stories and legends, and we have to tread carefully. The elephant in the corner is Geoffrey of Monmouth. What did Geoffrey do so wrong? He attracts a lot of derogatory comments from modern historians. Differences of opinion between historians is one thing, but our modern historians go one big step further and declared that his histories as nothing but myth, legend or worse. The orthodox historians piss on anything to do with Geoffrey of Monmouth, even though the poor guy was just (it seems) translating from Welsh to Latin.

In other topics and posts we have already covered this quite well, in so much as the Normans, Tudor, Georgian and Victorian historians all had their own historians with their own agendas, and distorted a lot of what had gone before. So I won't rehash that, except to note that their justification for rubbishing Geoffrey's accounts are largely and originally based on William of Malmsbury who accused Geoffrey of fraud.

This is actually a strange situation. William was not an unbiased observer. Why? After Geoffrey died, William has applied for Geoffrey's job as Bishop of Llandaff, but had been rejected, and was vehemently anti-Welsh from that point onwards. When Athelstan had expelled the Welsh from Devon and Cornwall, William had called them "polluted vermin".

When Jeffrey ap [son of] Arthur, Lord Bishop of Llandaff [Geoffrey Monmouth], died, an Englishman of the name Gwilym Bach [little William or William the Less] arrived, of whom I have already spoke, who desired Dafydd ap Owen, Prince of Gwynedd, to make him Bishop in Geoffrey’s place about the year 1169 AD. But when it was not in the mind of Dafydd ap Owen to grant him his request the man went home full of hatred and commenced to exercise his mind how best to despise and malign not only the memory of this bishop, who was lying in his grave, but also the whole of the Welsh nation.


Ref = Mirror of the Principal Ages by Rev.Theophilus Evans.

Despite that, our modern historians still run with the idea that Geoffrey's history is myth and legend. Regardless of the portions of history that match with other "recorded" history. For example, his account of the Romans in Britain match fairly well with other accounts, and even the Roman's own account despite their well-known tendency for "bigging-up" everything they did at the expense of everyone else's reputation. (See Julius Caesar's accounts of the Gaul Wars)

Geoffrey's account of Julius Caesar's invasion of Britain in 55BC fairly resembles what we know now from other sources. The Roman's campaign got off to a good start, managing to cross the Channel. But it ground to a halt after crossing the Thames and Caesar was forced to make peace with Cassivaelaunus, before withdrawing. The Romans (of course) did not call it a retreat. Similarly with Claudius' invasion c.100 years later, Claudius ended the war not by conquest but by marrying his own daughter Genvissa to Arviragus, King of Siluria, in 45 AD. Siluria was a kingdom in the south of Wales. Their son was Meric (Marius), King of the Britons. It was only after then that the Romans, with the aid of Southern Britains, proceeded north.

Modern English translation of the above passage, as given in Geoffey of Monmouth, The History of the Kings of Britain, trans. Lewis Thorpe (London: 1966), p. 121:

He (Claudius) therefore proposed peace to him (Arvirargus), promising to give him his own daughter, if only he would recognize that the kingdom of Britain was under the sway of Rome. His nobles persuaded Arvirargus to abandon his plans for battle and to accept the proposals of Claudius. Their argument was that it could be no disgrace for him to submit to the Romans, since they were the acknowledged overlords of the whole world. Arvirargus was swayed by these arguments and by others of a similar nature. He accepted their advice and submitted to Claudius. Claudius soon sent to Rome for his daughter. With the help of Arvirargus he subdued the Orkneys and the other islands in that neighbourhood.

http://www.deloriahurst.com/deloriahurs ... /1844.html


If we still don't like Geoffrey, we surely should think we could rely on Roman/Latin accounts instead. Not so! Here's just one example. Vespasian matters in British history (and Mithraism/proto-Christianity, but that's another story). According to Tacitus (ii.97), his rule was "infamous and odious" but according to Suetonius (Vesp. 4), he was "upright and, highly honourable".

Confused? We should be.
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Re: Book & site list

Postby Boreades » 10:31 pm

By the way, re the lost history of Wales

With regards to Welsh history and written records, there is a long trail of suppression by the "English" (THOBR excepting). Richard II attempted to prohibit writing in Wales c.1390, to prevent communication of Welsh ideas and propaganda. Next, Henry IV, had to deal with the rebellion of Owain Glyndwr, and an Act of Parliament banned the import of writing materials and equipment into Wales. By the time Caxton brought the printing press to England, Richard III was on the throne, and c.1483 he banned the use of the printing press outside London. A bit like trying to ban subversive websites today. Onward to Henry VIII, in 1542 an Act was passed that banned the use of Welsh in legal proceedings. Oliver Cromwell contributed by persecuting the established Welsh Church. By the time of the German Hanovian kings, historians became much more pro-Saxon, and anti-Welsh. The same happened again after Prince Albert married Queen Victoria. One of the final straws c.1846 was an Act that forbid the teaching of Welsh in Welsh schools. Welsh-speaking teachers were replaced with English ones, and speaking Welsh was punished.
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Re: Book & site list

Postby TisILeclerc » 10:36 pm

That's strange.

The Tudors were Welsh.

Oliver Cromwell's family name was Williams. He was of Welsh descent.

They just didn't want the plebs to read or write that's all.
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Re: Book & site list

Postby TisILeclerc » 10:42 pm

With the help of Arvirargus he subdued the Orkneys and the other islands in that neighbourhood.


Why do they keep mentioning the Orkneys?

It's very far away from the south of England. Yet we get tales of the south being threatened by Picts so they invite Angles and Saxons to come and protect them. And the Orcadians were even invited to the peace treaty with the Romans.

Very strange.
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Re: Book & site list

Postby Boreades » 10:57 pm

Yes, I wondered about that as well. We might have a hazy/romantic notion that Britain before the arrival of the Romans was all one happy family. But why so?

It might be that "Orkneys" was a collective term for all islands to the north, and the Welsh were happy to have Romans help them settle scores or settle new trade barriers.
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Re: Book & site list

Postby Boreades » 11:23 pm

What really seems to have got up our modern historians' noses is Geoffrey's account of pre-Roman Britain, in the Matter Of Britain tradition, with Brutus of Troy (en famille) sailing here as exiles.

Like the Irish stories of exiles from Egypt and the Scottish stories (Declaration of Arbroath)

The strange thing is, the Romans believed the same history of Britain!

In Gaul the Romans were happy with wholesale "pacification". So why didn't they do the same in Britain. It might be that by marrying into British royal families it gave them special rights via ancient legends that they had in common.

See the British King's speeches to Roman Senators.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caratacus
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Re: Book & site list

Postby TisILeclerc » 11:35 pm

Unless we accept the idea that Britain was Troy..

The ancient name for Egypt was Kemet.

And according to the Troy in Britain theory Egypt was in France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt
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Re: Book & site list

Postby Mick Harper » 2:27 pm

Pelagius was a Great Briton. I first came across him in The Wanting Seed by Anthony Burgess. Burgess himself is a great Briton, or at least a great British novelist though he is now chiefly remembered as the author of A Clockwork Orange.

In The Wanting Seed, which I highly recommend, Burgess describes a dystopia in which the following phases occur (I am quoting Wiki):

Pelphase is named after Pelagianism, the theology of Pelagius. The Pelphase is characterised by the belief that people are generally good. Crimes have slight punishment, and the government tries to improve the population. The government works through socialism. According to Tristram "A government functioning in its Pelagian phase commits itself to the belief that man is perfectible, that perfection can be achieved by his own efforts, and that the journey towards perfection is along a straight road." The novel begins – and ends – in Pelphase.


but then comes

Interphase is the darkening of Pelphase into Gusphase – an "Intermediate" phase. As Tristram explains things, the government grows increasingly disappointed in its population's inability to be truly good, and thus police forces are strengthened and the state becomes Totalitarian. In many respects, Interphase is a finite version of George Orwell's 1984.


and so on. It's all very entertaining and even more instructive.
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Re: Book & site list

Postby Boreades » 10:02 pm

When it comes to works of fiction, I am an ignoramus. So, please educate: why would Burgess insert a fictional character when he could have directly quoted Pelagius? If it's been abstracted, why is Pelagius a Great Briton?
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Re: Book & site list

Postby Mick Harper » 10:29 pm

The book is set in a near-future Britain. Burgess uses the philosophical differences between Pelasgius (of Britain) and Augustine (of Hippo) to construct a cyclical explanation of history in which tolerant liberalism (ie Pelasgianism) always goes too far and is gradually reined in by neo-Augustinianism (ie the forces of repression -- or perhaps order) which then in turn go too far ushering in an era in which Pelasgiansism gradually comes to the fore. And so on and so on endlessly.

Although Burgess is himself clearly on the side of Pelasgius (as far as I can remember, it's thirty years since I read it) we as Applied Epistemologists would probably recognise that both sides are correct in certain circumstances, in different countries and in different applications.
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