Megalithic shipping and trade routes

[hvered]

http://www.ancient-arts.org/pentrwyn%20exp%20report.pdf

The report is worth reading as it details the excavations and gives an analysis of the finds in relation to smelting activity as well as showing them reconstructing a furnace using the possible materials originally used.

It may be that 'vitrified forts' which seem to be mostly on the Scottish coast were industrial sites. Even today industrial areas tend to be apart from but accessible to ports and populated areas.

[Boreades]

Yes, and if it was Bronze intended for the Scandinavian and Baltic markets, it makes sense to be making in North Wales and/or Scotland, instead of Cornwall. Tin is only 10% or so of Bronze, so less material to move.

Interesting article here on Vitrified Forts
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4326

[TisILeclerc]

A genetic study of Welsh people found that the people of North Wales are genetically quite different from those in South Wales.

'"'Extraordinary' genetic make-up of north east Wales men." BBC News (July 19, 2011). Dr. Andy Grierson of the University of Sheffield comments on the finding of E1b1b1 in a large percentage (the article states approximately 30 percent) of men from northeast Wales (the town of Abergele). (Most of the men specifically carry E1b1b1a2, also known as E-V13). This is found in a much higher frequency than populations in the rest of the United Kingdom, which average 1 percent. The sample size was 500 people. Grierson said, "This type of genetic makeup is usually found in the eastern Mediterranean which made us think that there might have been strong connections between north east Wales and this part of Europe somewhere in the past. But this appears not to be the case, so we're still looking to find out why it's happened and what it reveals about the history of the region." '

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/welsh.html

It appears that there is some confusion over the interpretation of the results.

They tell us that this genetic makeup is common in the eastern Mediterranean which could show a connection between the two areas. Then they say that it 'appears not to be the case'.

I have the feeling that 'it is not the case' because they can find no reason for it.

Perhaps these genetic groups appeared spontaneously or could it be that they are going with the orthodox position that there was no connection when in fact there was a connection. They even mention the Bronze Age.

'Common in Mediterranean men, it was initially thought to suggest Bronze Age migrants 4,000 years ago.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-nort ... s-14173910

I think it's quite possible that copper smelters did indeed settle in the area when their own resources ran out.

[hvered]

Yes, and if it was Bronze intended for the Scandinavian and Baltic markets, it makes sense to be making in North Wales and/or Scotland, instead of Cornwall. Tin is only 10% or so of Bronze, so less material to move.

Interesting article here on Vitrified Forts
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4326

Thanks for the link, Borry, the article seems bizarrely fixated on the 'Iron Age' though passing mention is made of bronze... Fire was hardly an innovation, even orthodox historians confirm that bone-fires reach tremendously high temperatures.

Sites where bronze/copper-smelting took place would presumably be off-limits, not unlike present-day MOD areas, and apart from clues such as 'vitrified forts' pretty hard to detect. In fact the best place to look might even be on MOD-owned land.

[Boreades]

Agreed.

Despite all the times we (TME) have said "it's not a fort, it's an enclosure", this is one time I'm inclined to be gentle with the ortho's. Whatever the era, any sites that deal in high-technology / high-value goods will be made secure, with at least a handful of robust gatekeepers/bouncers, if not armed guards.

They might even have had showrooms, where punters could peruse the latest fashions in swords, cups, armlets, trinkets, whatever, before commissioning the objects of their desire. With more security to impress the clientele of course. With lots of sales people on commission.

[Boreades]

A genetic study of Welsh people found that the people of North Wales are genetically quite different from those in South Wales.

'"'Extraordinary' genetic make-up of north east Wales men." BBC News (July 19, 2011). Dr. Andy Grierson of the University of Sheffield comments on the finding of E1b1b1 in a large percentage (the article states approximately 30 percent) of men from northeast Wales (the town of Abergele). (Most of the men specifically carry E1b1b1a2, also known as E-V13). This is found in a much higher frequency than populations in the rest of the United Kingdom, which average 1 percent.

I love this haplogroup stuff, and the way it confounds the ortho-explanations.

Even the famous Sinclair / St. Clair family is involved in this
http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/lineagesE1b.html

[Boreades]

Coincidentally, I'm still slowly getting through "Kingdom of the Ark: That Startling Story of How the Ancient British Race is Descended from the Pharaohs" by Lorraine Evans.

It's an "Out-of-Egypt" tale, that documents the foundation of monotheism in Egypt by Akhenaten, and the catastrophic effect it had on Egyptian society at the time. The military leaders eventually sided with the old-school polytheistic priests, and staged a coup, outing the Akhenaten dynasty and it's followers, which then fragmented as it scattered around the Mediterranean.

Cue the tale of Moses and the Exodus from Egypt. Moses being part of the outed Akhenaten family. The name Moses is in fact a good Egyptian name meaning “son.” It’s a common element in the names of many pharaohs, such as Tuthmoses and, most famously, Ramesses (“son of Ra”).

But that's actually a tangent to Lorraine Evans' main theme, which is how Scota (daughter of Akhenaten) and other Egyptians arrived in Ireland. No doubt bringing a huge dollop of E1b1b1 with them as they did so?

Edit: Correction? Scota = daughter of Smenkhkaron (Aaron, brother or cousin of Moses), ruler after Akhenaten (nee Amenhotep)?
Scota's first husband was Niul, the Governor of Capacyront, by birth, a Black Sea prince of Scythia.

The Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 includes our Scots belief that thye were descended from Scythia.

[Boreades]

Yet more haplogroup sub-groups: E1b1b1b1a (M81)

The highest percentage of E-M81 in Europe is found among the Pasiegos (30%, n=101), an isolated community living in the mountains of Cantabria.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogrou ... -DNA.shtml

Not mentioned in the text, but visible on the map, is a small outpost of M81-ers in North Wales, while the rest of the UK is bare. These might, of course be Roman troops from North Africa that decided they liked North Wales so much they stayed there?

[hvered]

The map you posted seems to have a dark spot round in north Spain, at Santander... San Sebastian?

North Africa suggests Phoenicians. Africa and the south-east Mediterranean seem to loom quite large in people's DNA samples. I have a cousin who researched his family's genetics and concluded his dad's lot was from Ancient Egypt.

[hvered]

Cue the tale of Moses and the Exodus from Egypt. Moses being part of the outed Akhenaten family. The name Moses is in fact a good Egyptian name meaning “son.” It’s a common element in the names of many pharaohs, such as Tuthmoses and, most famously, Ramesses (“son of Ra”).

Sounds distinctly fishy in line with most seemingly rational etymologies of names/places. Thing is, 'mos/s' 'mus/a' and so forth is very common, so common in fact that it's either "from Latin [mosa]" or "Celtic".

The Megalithic associations are intriguing. For instance, the suggested etymology to do with mazes:

Etymology: < Middle French muce, musse, mouce hiding place, secret place (1190 in Old French as muce; only from 1561 in spec. sense 1a; French regional (central and western) musse hiding place, hole in a hedge) < mucier, mucer to hide, conceal oneself (second half of the 12th cent.; compare Anglo-Norman muscier, muscer, mucier, etc.; also Italian (regional) mucciare, muccire to flee) < an unidentified reflex of the Celtic base of Early Irish múch smoke, Welsh mwg smoke, which in turn is related to the Germanic base of smoke v. Compare mitch v., muset n.1 Compare slightly earlier maze n.2 and discussion at that entry.

which in turn leads to hedge-gap/tunnel, track leading to rabbit snares

A gap in a fence or hedge through which hares, rabbits, etc., pass, esp. as a means of escape; (also) a man-made track or tunnel for leading hares, rabbits, etc., into a trap.

There's a place at St Michael's Bay called Mousehole, pronounced Meusel/Mosel like the river(s). According to Wiki Maas, the Dutch version of Meuse, is their nickname for 'Thomas' which reminds me of an AE discussion about the Thames and various Thomases.