Megalithic shipping and trade routes

[Mick Harper]

When did the dove signify peace? Before Columba? I ask because the dove is a Megalithic bird and not, as far as I know in this context, related to peace. And I hardly think Columbus could choose his family name for any reason. Unless of course he didn't -- which some say. If he didn't it would be supportive evidence that he was a Megalithic. Or perhaps his whole family was.

[Mick Harper]

In the piece you refer to, this is entirely as per THOBR doctrine

The commonly held belief is that when Kenneth Mac Alpin, King of Scots took over the governance of the Picts, the Scots migrated eastwards from Dalriada to colonise the whole of Pictland. The Picts, according to this perceived wisdom, somehow disappeared into thin air, allowing the Scots to move in and settle down.

Of course, this is quite impossible. The population of Pictland was much larger than that of Dalriada, and there is no way that the Scots could have taken over the whole country without enormous bloodshed, which clearly did not occur. So what actually happened? For an explanation, we must return to King Kenneth

In other words it is as soppy as a few boatloads of Anglo-Saxons replacing the entire native population of England. But then he spoils it

after Kenneth Mac Alpin ascended the throne, and English was fast making sweeping inroads through the Lothians and Borders. Consequently the Pictish language, along with its own unique sense of identity, began to die out and with it went Pictish history, culture and customs.

This is just "Well, this is the position today so ... er... it just happened." How could "The English" sweep through the Lothians and the Borders when the local population must have been vastly larger? But even if this is granted, why and how would this Border/Lothian English population have ousted the natives from more or less the rest of Scotland? Especially since the government (MacAlpin and his successors) were Gaelic?

[TisILeclerc]

'The goddesses Atargatis, Ishtar, Inanna, Astarte and Aphrodite are all depicted with doves.

The legendary queen Semiramis was raised by doves, connecting her to the goddesses.

In the Epic of Gilgamesh the dove was released to search for the end of the deluge.[1]
Christianity and Judaism
Peace symbol

A white dove is a traditional Christian symbol of love and peace, see Peace dove.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doves_as_symbols

[Mick Harper]

'The goddesses Atargatis, Ishtar, Inanna, Astarte and Aphrodite are all depicted with doves.

So nothing to do with peace then.

The legendary queen Semiramis was raised by doves, connecting her to the goddesses.

So nothing to do with peace then

In the Epic of Gilgamesh the dove was released to search for the end of the deluge.[1]

Nothing to do with peace but highly Megalithic.

Christianity and Judaism
Peace symbol A white dove is a traditional Christian symbol of love and peace, see Peace dove.'

Yes, but before Columba?

[TisILeclerc]

An interesting piece on how slowly or quickly Gaelic spread across Scotland.

'Speakers of Northumbrian Old English settled in south eastern Scotland in the 7th century, at which time Celtic Brythonic was spoken in the south of Scotland to a little way north of the Firth of Forth and the Firth of Clyde, and Pictish was spoken further north: almost nothing is known today about the Pictish language. At the same time Gaelic speakers began to spread from the Western Coast of Scotland north of the Clyde into the east. Over the next five hundred years with the founding of Scotland and spread of Christianity across the north of Britain by the Columban Church the Gaelic language slowly moved eastwards and southwards across the lowlands. When Northumbrian lands were incorporated into Scotland in the 11th century Gaelic became the prestige language there and had some influence, but the south east remained largely English speaking'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... s_language

So English could move into Scotland in about 250 years but Gaelic took five hundred years. They can't have been that ferocious could they?



The red is English by the 9th century. The yellow ochre is early Scots by the fifteenth century and the light yellow is the extent of modern Scots today.

Of course they always referred to the language as Inglis or Ynglis. Unlike the Latins and French who insist on Anglais. Perhaps the idea of Angles is to tie in with the idea they came from Angeln. Although the English always called themselves English.

We are told that English got into Scotland via Northumbria.

' Aethelfrith's power was now beyond dispute and the Celts were forced to accept his rule. That is not to say that large areas of the north instantly became Anglo-Saxon. The settlement of Anglo-Saxons was extensive, but Celts were still predominant in Cumbria, the Pennines, the Celtic Kingdoms of Loidis (Leeds), Elmet and Meicen (in Hatfield, the marshy country near Doncaster).

In 603 Aethelfrith turned his attention to the Celts of the far north, going into battle with Aidan MacGabrain, King of the Dalriada Scots. The Dalriada Scots lived in western Caledonia but originated from Hibernia (Ireland). During the battle, the Scots were assisted by a large force of Ulstermen, but were defeated in battle at Degastan, an unknown location, possibly in Liddesdale. Aethelfrith's victory forced the Kingdoms of Strathclyde in the west, Rheged in Cumbria and Gododdin in the Lothians to recognise Bernician superiority once again. With his power and prestige assured Aethelfrith usurped the crown of Deira in Yorkshire. He thus became King of both Deira and Bernicia, uniting all the Angle territory north of the River Humber into one kingdom called Northumbria. Bernicia and Deira were reduced to mere sub kingdoms. '

http://www.englandsnortheast.co.uk/King ... mbria.html

They seem to be busy little bees. Sun Tzu who wrote the Art of War would have been very disappointed with them as they break every rule in the book, yet go on to win.

He's got Celts to the south of him, Celts to the north of him, and what does he do? He goes for the Celts of the far north to fight the Irish. Little mention of Strathclyde Britons or Picts here. Although everybody is forced to recognise his superiority. Sounds like a hero made in Hollywood.

But what of the Picts? Didn't they fight the Northumbrians? Yes they did on many occasions. And the Northumbrians fought the Picts as well but that's what warlords do. It's the nature of the job. It goes with the territory as they say.

However, they also fought on the same side against a common foe. In this case the Strathclyde Britons.

'According to some verifiable accounts and some of the legends, we understand that during Teudebur’s reign as king of Strathclyde, 722-52, the ascendance was with the Picts under their powerful king, Angus, who dominated northern Britain during the period 730-750. However Teudebur overcame the Picts at the battle of Mygedawg in 750. Angus survived the battle, but his brother Talorgen was killed. Angus lent his help to Eadbert of Northumbria to attack Dumbarton in 756. Dumbarton fell, but, on the homeward journey, the combined army was engaged by the Britons and devastated. Still, the kingdom of Strathclyde may have been subordinate to Northumbria for much of the next century. .

http://skyelander.orgfree.com/strathclyde.html

It is tempting and fashionable to describe that period as one long battle between heroic Picts or Scots and wicked Norhumbrians. Yet the Northumbrian royal family was part Irish and part Pictish. Something easily forgotten.

'Aldfrith was born on an uncertain date to Oswiu of Northumbria and an Irish princess named Fín. Oswiu later became King of Northumbria; he died in 670 and was succeeded by his son Ecgfrith. Aldfrith was educated for a career in the church and became a scholar. However, in 685, when Ecgfrith was killed at the battle of Nechtansmere, Aldfrith was recalled to Northumbria, reportedly from the Hebridean island of Iona, and became king.'

'Cuthbert, later considered a saint, was a second cousin of Aldfrith (according to Irish genealogies), which may have been the reason for his proposal as monarch.[18][19]

Ecgfrith was killed during a campaign against his cousin, the King of the Picts Bridei map Beli, at a battle known as Nechtansmere to the Northumbrians, in Pictish territory north of the Firth of Forth.[20] Bede recounts that Queen Eormenburh and Cuthbert were visiting Carlisle that day, and that Cuthbert had a premonition of the defeat.[21] Ecgfrith's death threatened to break the hold of the descendants of Æthelfrith on Northumbria, but the scholar Aldfrith became king and the thrones of Bernicia and Deira remained united.[22]

Although rival claimants of royal descent must have existed, there is no recorded resistance to Aldfrith's accession.[23] It has also been suggested that Aldfrith's ascent was eased by support from Dál Riata, the Uí Néill, and the Picts, all of whom might have preferred the mature, known quantity of Aldfrith to an unknown and more warlike monarch, such as Ecgfrith or Oswiu had been.[24] The historian Herman Moisl, for example, wrote that "Aldfrith was in Iona in the year preceding the battle [of Nechtansmere]; immediately afterwards, he was king of Northumbria. It is quite obvious that he must have been installed by the Pictish-Dál Riatan alliance".[25] Subsequently a battle between the Northumbrians and the Picts in which Berht was killed is recorded by Bede and the Irish annals in 697 or 698.[26] Overall, Aldfrith appears to have abandoned his predecessors' attempts to dominate Northumbria's neighbours.[27]'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldfrith_of_Northumbria

It's interesting to note that the Northumbrians learnt Irish but there is no mention of Pictish even if they were cousins.

'In 616, Æthelfrith was succeeded by Edwin of Northumbria, a Deiran. Edwin banished Æthelfrith's sons, including both Oswald and Oswiu of Northumbria. Both spent their exile in Dál Riata, a kingdom spanning parts of northeastern Ireland and southwestern Scotland. Oswiu was a child when he came to Dál Riata, and grew up in an Irish milieu.[4] He became a fluent speaker of Old Irish,[5] and may have married a princess of the Uí Néill dynasty, probably Fín the daughter (or possibly granddaughter) of Colmán Rímid.[6] Aldfrith was a child of this marriage, but his date of birth is unrecorded.[7] He was probably thus a cousin or nephew of the noted scholar Cenn Fáelad mac Aillila, and perhaps a nephew of Bishop Finan of Lindisfarne.[8] Irish law made Fín's kin, the Cenél nEógain of the northern Uí Néill, responsible for his upbringing.[9] The relationship between Aldfrith's father and mother was not considered a lawful marriage by Northumbrian churchmen of his day, and he is described as the son of a concubine in early sources.'

I suspect that the refugees from ancient Doggerland must have had a common culture which would have included language. Therefore any who made it to Britain's east coast whether in the north or south would have been speakers of that language. It could be that the Picts were a branch of those northern survivors which would explain why they would not have been Irish speakers who came from the west.

[Mick Harper]

Tis, I have great difficulty following this for two reasons. The first is that for some reason you refuse to use the Quote facility so I never know who's talking. When you write your answer you will see above the box some little boxes starting with B and ending in Font Colour. All these are useful (you can see I've been using the B) but for you the most useful would be the fourth one along called Quote. If you highlight a passage in your answer (you do that by holding the cursor button down, moving the cursor along the words and then letting go of the button) then click on Quote. The software does the rest. Let me know if this proves problematic.

The second is inordinate length. Try to remember that all of us find it taxing reading from a screen plus we have limited concentration spans when dealing with complex ideas. So a coupla paragraphs is probably optimal. You can always post a sequence of posts if you've got a lot to say but don't do this all at once because we (I may mean I) might not bother when we see all these unread posts from the same person. You have to leave a few hours in between each which is a nuisance but there you are.

Ignore this if you are one of those people who like writing but aren't too bothered whether anybody reads what they write.

[TisILeclerc]

Sorry Boss.

I wondered how it was done.

Technology is wonderful isn't it.

[Mick Harper]

You betray your age, Tissie, either under six or over sixty.

[TisILeclerc]

I can use a phone you know.

As long as I've got 2d for the call and can remember whether to press the A button or the B.

[Mick Harper]

While we're on the subject, using bold -- especially bold black -- is hurtful to the eyes when it's a wodge of writing. The convention we use on the AEL site is to colour it red when we are quoting one another and blue if it is a quote from some outside source. But I will leave you to play with your new colouring book.