Megalithic shipping and trade routes

[TisILeclerc]

Well, the history goes on to say that they then started to attack England, Scotland and Ireland.

So the period of taking Orkney must predate those events. They are Norwegians not Danes so it's the first attacks by the Norwegians we must look at. I think their first raid was 793 on Lindisfarne.

What interests me is who the papes were in Orkney. For that matter who were the picts or pents who did all the work. And what sort of work was it. Was it a relic of the civilisation that built all those old stone buildings being unearthed today by archaeologists?

I can't see them being Romans left behind. But then again if they were Christian monks the Historae would surely mention the fact? And there's no mention of treasure to loot. Just people to chase and kill.

[Boreades]

Re

Of these races, the Pents, only a little taller than pygmies, accomplished miraculous achievements by building towns morning and evenings, but at midday every ounce of strength deserted them and they hid for fear in underground chambers

At this hour of the morning, I'm a bit confused how the 16th-century Historia Norwegiæ knew anything about pygmies. I thought we had to wait for Livingstone to trip over them in Africa? Or is this something lost in translation from Norwegian to English. I will have to ask my favourite Norse godmother.

Still, as I'm short and dark, and regularly perform miraculous deeds in my day job, but get bugger-all appreciation, I can appreciate the desire for an Orkney siesta.

[hvered]

Nowhere is knowledge of tides and currents more needed than in the Orkneys, especially in the Pentland Firth it seems

On coasts with large tidal ranges, the funnelling of tidal flows through a narrow strait can produce fearsome tidal currents, rips and whirlpools. At both the flood and ebb tides the sea surface can become highly agitated, with standing waves and vortices. These passages are rightly avoided by navigators, except at slack water.

The Pentland Firth is a strait with just such a reputation, with astonishing currents reported of up to 30 km/hr west of Pentland Skerries. A set of tidal races forms at different states of the tide:

Do Orkney tides turn or are they especially vicious as it were around midday?

[Boreades]

More on the Papars. mentioned in connection with the Hiberno-Scottish Mission.

Irish monks known as Papar are said to have been present in Iceland before its settlement from 874 AD onwards by the Norse. The oldest source mentioning the existence of the Papar was written in the Íslendingabók (Book of the Icelanders), between 1122 and 1133. Such figures are also mentioned in the Icelandic Landnámabók (the Book of Settlements) which states that the Norse found Irish priests, with bells and crosiers, at Iceland at the time of their arrival. The surviving versions of Landnámabók date from the second half of the 13th century or a little later, though it has been suggested that it was composed in an early form by Ari Þorgilsson (1067–1148).

http://www.liquisearch.com/hiberno-scot ... _to_13th_c

[TisILeclerc]

Am I missing something here with all these Irish monks?

They seem to go out of their way to find uninhabited islands or inaccessible mountain tops where they ring their bells or whatever. Shouldn't they be out there saving souls and building big cathedrals and getting very rich?

Even Jesus said something about being fishers of men.

I know they did go out converting people but after that there seems to be nothing except for building a remote church or building and keeping to themselves.

Whatever the doctrinal differences with Rome they act as though they wanted to keep it all fairly secretive. Was that just bad salesmanship or were they not bothered?

[Mick Harper]

Three sets of people have a tendency to inhabit remote buildings and keep to themselves: 1) Irish monks 2) hermits 3) lighthouse keepers. But none of these is important unless they are up to something collectively.

[Mick Harper]

For instance, the somewhat enigmatic Trinity House is a collectivity of lighthouse keepers, and which we have discussed already. But I might point out something important about it, and something unimportant.

Its importance lies in the fact that it requires a national, even a supra-national, organisation. This is a theme taken up tangentially as a role of the Megalithics in TME. If you think about it, light houses (or their equivalent) have to be national/ supra-national since no purely local entity has the least interest in the safety of passing mariners -- rather the opposite if popular folklore is to be believed. So if you want them, if you need them, you've got to organise them on a large scale.

The unimportance is that this is a purely technical service undertaken by rather dull individuals and paid for by equally stolid mariners. It is impossible (for me anyway) to work out why a network of such coves would ever be of wider intellectual, economic or social significance.

[TisILeclerc]

'Gypsies Tramps and Thieves' as the song has it.

Skellig Michael is a case in point. In fact a very pointy rock in the Atlantic making it very difficult for the faithful to come and pay their Peter's Pence but home to monks nevertheless.



Monks inhabited it at some point between the sixth and eighth centuries. Apparently there were never more than twelve monks and an abbot living on it at any one time. They created their own water gathering and purification system as well as creating kitchen gardens to grow food.

It was important as the supposed burial place of Ir son of Mil of Spain. The founders of the Milesian dynasty in Ireland.

There was also a hermitage.

And a report of an attack by Vikings in 823. Why would Vikings attack a place like that. I know they liked doing that sort of thing, it went with the job description but I doubt whether Skellig Michael was a Lindisfarne or Iona. Unless they needed fresh vegetables.

According to wiki they moved out in the twelfth to thirteenth centuries because of climate change or possibly a change in

changes to the structure of the Irish Church

which I think is more probable. That period seems to be a changing point for many things.

And then much later the place becomes a lighthouse.

Skellig Michael remained in the possession of the Catholic Canons Regular until the dissolution of the Ballinskelligs abbey during the Protestant Reformation by Elizabeth I in 1578.[2][6] Ownership was then passed to the Butler family with whom it stayed until the early 1820s, when the Corporation for Preserving and Improving the Port of Dublin (the predecessor to the Commissioners of Irish Lights) purchased the island from John Butler of Waterville in a compulsory purchase order.[3][6] The Corporation constructed two lighthouses on the Atlantic side of the island, and associated living quarters, all of which was completed by 182

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skellig_Michael

The island is also called the Great Skellig or in Irish Sceilig Mhór. In Scots and northern English 'mickel' and 'muckel' mean great. I don't want to deny the Irish anything but could Michael be an insular term for big or great?

It was important enough to have been included on Italian and Spanish portolan charts. Oh, and apparently they could perform miracles with a never ending supply of wine.

http://www.worldheritageireland.ie/skel ... ackground/

The etymology of Skellig is rather interesting. It is described in the sites I've seen as meaning a splinter of rock or something similar. Which it is certainly. But an online Irish dictionary goes further. Under the entry for 'scillig' we are told that as well as meaning a 'shell' or 'husk' or 'flake' it also refers to speech. Which could be a reference to the sermons and prayers of the monks. With the interesting extra of 'spouting lies'.

3. Prate, prattle. Bheith ag ~eadh (cainte), to talk incessantly. Ag ~eadh éithigh, spouting lies

http://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/scillig

So there we have it, monks, hermits and lighthouse keepers with the added bonus of Vikings. I think it's got a connection with the Michael Line as well hasn't it?

[Mick Harper]

Many good spots here. Let's start with an Irish Michael. The Irish are famously The Micks but is there a wider significance? After all, Gaelic saints are (uniquely?) not drawn from the Biblical canon (St Sampson?), so why is Michael? Ditto, traditional Gaelic Christian names -- are they non-Biblical except Michael? Of course the -el in Michael denotes a Hebrew God but perhaps Hatty can elucidate.

In Scots and northern English 'mickel' and 'muckel' mean great

This is not specially helpful on its own unless 'great' can be given some more significance. Push harder!

[TisILeclerc]

What I meant was that Michael is Mickel meaning 'great'. If that is the case then Skellig Michael which is also known in Irish as Great Skellig - notice the absence of Michael there - was not named after an archangel but after its size in relation to the smaller one.

So whoever named it was not a Gaelic speaker he, or she, was using a word of Germanic extraction.