Megalithic shipping and trade routes

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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 5:09 pm

I wish they'd make up their minds about where it came from.

Cornwall Archaeological Unit (CAU), part of Cornwall council, uncovered the walls of the palace and more than 150 fragments of pottery and glass which had been imported to the site from exotic locations across the globe indicating it was inhabited by wealthy individuals.

Finds include sherds of imported late-Roman amphorae, fragments of fine glass, and the rim of a Phocaean red-slip ware which is the first piece of fine tableware found on the site.

Previous excavations have uncovered thousands of pieces of pottery at Tintagel – with the vast majority dating from the fifth to seventh centuries and imported from the Mediterranean.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... ce-of-kin/
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 5:19 pm

Other accounts of the same dig say something different:

Tintagel was a bustling settlement in the centuries after the Roman retreat from Britain. Surveys have found evidence of almost 100 buildings, plus gardens and pathways, on the headland alone. Thousands of pottery fragments, most of them imported from the Mediterranean in the 5th to 7th centuries, attest to Tintagel's importance as a trade center and as the home of regional rulers during the post-Roman period. Many luxury items have been identified at the side: wine from Turkey, olive oil from the Aegean, glassware made in Merovingian France, dishware from North Africa.


Apparently there's lots of Merovingian glassware in the British Museum.

https://ancientglass.wordpress.com/muse ... 5th-7th-c/

Merovingian = Salian Franks = Normans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salian_Franks
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 12:29 am

Tintagel has a big part to play in Francis Pryor's video : "Britain AD - the Invasion That Never Was"

There now follows some transcription notes that may be of interest to my learned TME brethren.

@ 18:50 he starts on the "Dark Age" buildings on the Tintagel peninsula.
He says it's all Post-Roman, Pre-Norman.

Huge amounts of pottery shards, analysed as "Serpentine", coming from the Cyprus and Southern Turkey area. Used for transporting goods by sea from the Eastern Med, in the era 530-560. A vast trade network, based on Constantinople. Byzantian. Not Roman. Trading goods, and ideas.

But what was being traded for all these fancy foreign goodies?

Discovery in Erme Estuary, Devon in 1995 by divers. A "most unusual find" - tin ingots 99.9% pure. On the shore nearby, ancient hearths with more of these pottery shards (beach parties)
ref Neville Oldham, South West Marine Archaeology Group.
( See http://www.marinearchaeology.org/ErmeEstuary.htm )

@ 33:30
Same kind of pottery shards found on Caldy Island, part of the early Monastic movement. Not Roman. Arrived from Eastern Med. An alternative to the Roman Christianity. "Dozens" of monasteries established in the Dark Ages according to Gildas (according to Pryor).
Gildas = one of scholars in touch with all of Europe.

Inscribed stones like found on Caldey also found scattered across Western Britain. Literate society.

Pryor starts talking to David Howlett, Medieval Latin @ Oxford
Seven liberal arts formed in Dark Ages
Mathematics = static number
Music = moving number

@39:00
David Howlett says Modern Europe was invented in Britain in the 6th Century
The Inscribed stones (found in Western Britain) looked like ropey odd Latin prose,
nobody realised it is verse with hidden meanings.

From St Tudclud, Penmachno:
Caravsivs hic iacit in hoc congeries lapidvm
= Caracsis here lies in a heap of stones.

But it you read it backwards
vm lapid es geri con hoc in iacit hic ivs avs car
Classical Latin, a line of hexameter verse with faultless metrical quantities
Encoding the name of the person that designed the inscription
Viola
Most holy wife of a Bishop.
( See Literate culture of `Dark Age' Britain : http://archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba33/ba33feat.html )

@43:10
The Dark Age didn't exist in Britain. These people kept using a classical Latin because they did not speak a Romanese tongue. The Brits are the only people in Europe who did this. Britain did not collapse. Britain was the only place in Europe that prospered during the mythic Dark Age.
Resurrecting ancient trade links. The lights were turned up brighter.

Camelot was a real place, centre of a huge trade network and learning.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 8:52 pm

Reinforcing the TME view of Orkney as an ancient trade hub comes this from OrkneyJar:

This vast spread of Bronze Age settlement appears to have been sealed beneath the massive sand dunes that characterise the approach to Tresness. Indeed, a number are actually in the process of eroding from beneath the dune complex. What this discovery reveals is that an entire Bronze Age landscape on Sanday was covered, as the sand dunes formed in the second millennium BC.

It was the scale and density of occupation that really surprised the archaeologists, as they proceeded along the ness. The houses are visible as differently shaped spreads of stones and, in all, some 14 examples were located, distributed over a kilometre stretch along the sand.

Not only are house structures present, but working areas are also visible. Professor Downes, who specialises in the Bronze Age, was stunned by the extent of the settlement area. “This must be one of the biggest complexes of Bronze Age settlement in the Scottish isles, rivalling the spreads of hut circles in other parts of mainland Scotland,” she exclaimed.


http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/20 ... in-orkney/
Last edited by Boreades on 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Mick Harper » 8:55 pm

It don't matter how often and how big, they'll just shrug and say, "How interesting." When an academic is "stunned" it just means he is stunned by the size of research grants that this will trigger.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby TisILeclerc » 9:51 pm

What's interesting about the finds on Orkney are how complex it all is. The architecture is stunning, not just in the design and craftsmanship, but in the way it has all been worked out and planned.

This is not the random action of a small group of travellers from the civilised south who, for some strange reason, decided to sail all the way around Britain to the far north east. And ignore the fertile mainland in order to settle on a group of small islands.

Unless they didn't come from the south.

Academics propose theories but these are usually based on what they already know. They are civilised, civilisation is southern, therefore they came from the south.

They could never have imagined or theorised that there was a huge land mass under the north sea. Even though Orkney legends are full of stories of the Finfolk who come to ensnare mortals and take them down to their land under the sea.

At the moment they are talking about getting dna from the finds they have been amassing which have been brought up from the deep. It looks as if all the universities want to get in on it. A kind of archeological arms race and the winner gets all the glory and grants.

In Baldrick's film from a few years ago they casually mention a fishing spear and how one had been found over off the coast of Denmark. And they were exactly the same which even they had to mention meant that there was a common culture.

Britain and Denmark were culturally identical when Doggerland was up and running. The oldest human remains are over seven hundred thousand years old. That's enough time to establish a very advanced civilisation. We've done something similar in just over a thousand years from the Norman conquest so it can't be too difficult as long as you haven't got people holding you back. For whatever reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P9wQj6qX2I

It's worth watching again and this time taking notes. And whenever they mention climate change don't wince, they are mainly referring to the melting of the ice twelve thousand years ago. Even if they do try and insinuate other climate changes into their conversations.

The people of Orkney must have come from some sort of connection with this vast landmass going across to Denmark. And they've always been proud of their Norse connections.

Image

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12292457

The Ness of Brodgar archaeological site in the Orkney Islands is almost a thousand years older than Stonehenge and the center for Neolithic Britain and shares some of the same cultural artifacts found there.

Now if we look at your map you can see that these islands in Northern Scotland were once mountain regions of early Doggerland that was first area destroyed by the first stage of the flooding in the timeline. In fact the earliest record of Neolithic Britain are all almost found in Scotland with some exceptions.

If you notice in your map the largest major river system in Doggerland is east of the Orkney's which would be a desirable place for human settlement.
Suggesting that the Orkney mountains is where they fled to during the flood.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Mick Harper » 9:59 pm

I am temperamentally and intellectually averse to using Big Stuff to explain relatively small stuff. Doggerland just gets in the way. As it were. Much better to assume everything is just as it is now and then think why there should be large settlements in the Orkneys. Not, note, sophisticated ones, since the Orkneys are just as sophisticated today as anywhere else (bar a few decades, maybe). The 'stunning' thing is the size of the settlements -- relative to elsewhere. That is the reverse of todays's situation and therefore requires explanation. I can't see that Doggerland would make the slightest difference to that.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby TisILeclerc » 10:18 pm

Large established population moving to the nearest safe high ground when they got flooded.

They brought their ideas with them.

If you look at the map Orkney was landlocked and anyone sailing round from the west would be up beyond Shetland but not in Orkney.

The logical explanation for the large settlements in Orkney must be that a large population moved there from the only area nearby where such a population could have existed. And that was Doggerland.

Which would also go to explain the presence of 'Germanic' languages in Britain when we were supposed to be populated by 'Celtic' speakers from the Mediterranean.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Mick Harper » 10:40 pm

None of this makes sense even if you accept Doggerland.

Large established population moving to the nearest safe high ground when they got flooded.


Since Doggerlan is supposed to have occupied most of the North Sea, going north-west is positively perverse.

They brought their ideas with them.


Well, everybody does. You've just shifted the Orkney High Culture problem to somewhere else.

If you look at the map Orkney was landlocked and anyone sailing round from the west would be up beyond Shetland but not in Orkney.


I cannot follow this unless you provide a map with arrows or whatnot. But your whole thesis is spoiled by this air of desperation. Does Orkney look like a reugee camp? Quite the opposite.

The logical explanation for the large settlements in Orkney must be that a large population moved there from the only area nearby where such a population could have existed. And that was Doggerland.


This is barmy. I don't doubt there were large populations all over the shop. The question beofre us is why a large population should decide to settle on Orkney with the rest of the world available.

Which would also go to explain the presence of 'Germanic' languages in Britain when we were supposed to be populated by 'Celtic' speakers from the Mediterranean.


Orkney can hardly claim to be ur-England. You can believe it if you want but I'd prefer to have a morsel of evidence just to be getting on with.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby TisILeclerc » 10:46 pm

The map's in front of your eyes unless you want me to post it again.

Doggerland got flooded. The population would have moved to where it was safer to high ground. No doubt many moved east. No doubt many moved west.

What we do know is that there is a sudden explosion of building on a small group of islands which to the southern mind is cut off from everywhere else. And the structures on Orkney pre date Stonehenge so it seems as though civilisation was in the north and moved south. Not the other way round. At least the megalithic civilisation.
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