Jack and the Beanstalk

[Iona]

In Scotland a gillie is a huntsman's guide. It may be an Irish term though gillies are associated with the highlands nowadays.

Wiki says The origin of this word dates from the late 16th century, from the Scottish Gaelic gille, "lad, servant", cognate with the Irish giolla. Usually it's Jack and his master rather than Jack and his servant, the nursery rhyme may be sending up his presumption.

Ghillies are dancing shoes made of leather with cross-lacing, which may or may not be significant in relation to the various harlequins and Hermes-style guides parading through these threads.

[spiral]

Hmm

Jack and Jill went up the hill
To fetch a pail of water.
Jack fell down and broke his crown,
And Jill came tumbling after.

Up Jack got, and home did trot,
As fast as he could caper,
To old Dame Dob, who patched his nob
With vinegar and brown paper

Well I suppose what hits you at first is the double meanings of crown and nob.

[hvered]

Lucky that Dame Dob was close by and that she rhymes with nob. Dob may have been culled from dubh, 'black' in Gaelic, an appropriate crone-like attribute.

[hvered]

Beans may be synonymous with fertility and life (cf. beans as pulses) but seem here to be a version of the Tree of Life, the Pillar of Wisdom, etc. etc. The twining (twinning?) stalks are reminiscent of Hermes' caduceus.

Beans were supposed to ward off evil spirits which suggests the dried variety at least were used at toll points as (modest) payment in kind. We still say "I don't have a bean".

All manner of superstitions seem to cluster around beans according to http://www.angelfire.com/de/poetry/Flowers/Beans.html which also says they were traded by north American peoples.

Beans have been cultivated since time immemorial. Just as with many other ancient food crops, long years of cultivation have led to wide variation in the bean family. Offerings of beans and pork were given as offerings to Cardea in Rome on June 1st. They are also associated with the underworld and the dead, distributed and eaten during Roman funerals. On three days of the year, the Roman head of the household went through a ritual ceremony of spitting beans out of his mouth to rid his home of evil spirits. In Italy, beans were distributed among the poor on the anniversary of a death. Beans have even been found in the ancient tombs of Peru.

[spiral]

How about Jack and Jill?

Harriet is the expert on Jack and the Beanstalk. Is there a link as you imply?

There are certain correspondences.

Jack=Jack
There is element of "up/down."
There is a "find" element at the top.
There is a "danger" element.
There is a "chance" element.

Not that convincing is it?

Jack and Jill has the rhythm of a rhyme, chilldren can walk or march to.

It still seems to me about not being "too big for your boots"


Jack and Jill went up the hill
To fetch a pail of water.
Jack fell down and broke his crown, (play on words crown of head/kings crown)
And Jill came tumbling after.

Up Jack got, and home did trot,
As fast as he could caper,
To old Dame Dob, who patched his nob(play on words head/nobility)
With vinegar and brown paper

It seems that common jack had ideas above his station.....

I dont know.....

What on earth were you thinking about Boro?

[hvered]

Orthodoxy says Edith.... a female given name: from Old English words meaning “rich, happy” and “war.”

So apparently lots of girls were called "Happy war" .

Bloodthirsty times. Eh?

Edith Swan-neck reportedly identified Harold's body on the battlefield. She sounds like a valkyrie, a woman who chooses who will live or die in battle in Norse mythology. Harold's loss of his left eye links him poetically speaking to Odin.

Edda, as in the Icelandic sagas, seems to refer to old woman, grandmother. Edith may be a diminutive as in 'Auntie'.

[Stuart]

Some depictions of the damsel looking on as the dragon-slaying hero goes snicker-snack are quite sinister. Or valkyrie-ish. I wonder if the local princess is an Edith.

[Boreades]

What on earth were you thinking about Boro?

Umm, how about ...

Jack and Jill were on a Quest
To find a Grail
The Male was Wounded

He was restored to health
By a Wise Woman
Using ancient remedies

[spiral]

What on earth were you thinking about Boro?

Umm, how about ...

Jack and Jill were on a Quest
To find a Grail
The Male was Wounded

He was restored to health
By a Wise Woman
Using ancient remedies

The Age of Gallant Knights and Chivalry.
The Quest for the Holy Pail......

[Martin]

Dob may have been culled from dubh, 'black' in Gaelic, an appropriate crone-like attribute.

If she's a white witch Dob might mean dove. The origins of dove are uncertain, though interestingly in Hebrew tov means 'good'.

In any case it's clear that dove is associated with whiteness whereas dubh is Gaelic for black. The Gaelic name Collum, Colm or Callum means dove, derived from 'Late Latin' columba apparently, from which we get clown i.e. fool, jester (etymology unknown), characteristically shown with black eyes, bright red mouth and white-painted face.