Jack and the Beanstalk

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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby spiral » 8:53 am

hvered wrote:
Boreades wrote:The emphasis that Grimm puts on 12 usurping 13 feels significant as well. Lunar calendar (old knowledge) being replaced by a Roman calendar perhaps?


Thirteen, connected with the lunar calendar, is the natural cycle. It was once a lucky number. Some people claim that many stone circles consisted of 13 stones, or 12 in the circle with the centre stone making up the 13th. Be that as it may, there were twelve apostles circling around the Son or Sun.

When you divide the year up by the moon, you get 13 moons of 28 days each, plus one extra day. Each moon is four perfect weeks. Each year is 52 weeks. These are the cycles that govern the physical aspects of life including the menstrual cycle (the pricked finger may be a veiled reference).

The Ogham alphabet apparently consists of thirteen consonants and five (sacred) vowels. According to Robert Graves, the Beth-Luis-Nion Celtic Lunar Tree Calendar/alphabet consists of thirteen lunar trees and five solar trees. At any rate, the thicket sounds very much like a Druidic "sacred" grove.


And roses are full of symbology as well. Anyone for a Rosicrucian connection?

Could be. These old stories have a tendency to get reworked and return in a new, more 'civilised', guise. The Rosicrucians seem to have been quite high up the social ladder.

The thorny briars are equivalent to a girdle and various Celtic saints, not to mention moon-goddesses like Aphrodite, were girdled. Breaching the girdle has sexual connotations but in esoteric-speak means enlightenment.


In my view 19th century Druid revivalist/romantic nonsense that has already been totally debunked http://www.maryjones.us/jce/celtictreecalendar.html still.....I could be wrong... if anybody can make this work I would be very interested.
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby Martin » 12:57 pm

Even Robert Graves who wrote reams about the tree calendar retracted, saying the whole thing was nonsense and more or less disowning The White Goddess. Druids, Gnostics et al. seem to constantly miss the wood for the trees.
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby Boreades » 5:12 pm

spiral wrote:In my view 19th century Druid revivalist/romantic nonsense that has already been totally debunked http://www.maryjones.us/jce/celtictreecalendar.html still.....I could be wrong... if anybody can make this work I would be very interested.


It might depend on which branch (sic) of Druidry we're talking about. The Ancient Order of Druids was (re)formed in 1781 by Henry Hurle (who just happens to be in my family tree as well). I believe he was inspired by the likes of William Stukeley (the famous historian on Stonehenge and Avebury) and John Wood, who were both in early masonic orders.

John Wood is famous for his very detailed survey of Stonehenge, besides designing much of the grandest parts of Bath based on masonic themes. The official history of the AOD doesn't mention the proto-masonic roots, like being founded in the Apple Tree Tavern. (The same place that the United Grand Lodge of England describes as a starting point for English Masonry). The AOD in 1781 was a male-only organisation, and still is, and still has some traditional masonic symbology and terminology. Maybe that can be described as Deep-Root Druidry?

Which is quite different from the more inclusive branches like The Order of Bards, Ovates & Druids (OBOD), the The British Druid Order and the Druid Network. Those are open to male and female, and maybe could be described as Broad-Church Druidry?

There's a nice article on the Druid Network website on how some of their Gorsedd ritual was included in the Paralympics Closing Ceremony. That ritual was written by Philip Shallcrass and Emma Restall Orr.
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby spiral » 6:11 pm

Penny wrote: The game of jacks evolved from knuckle-bones. It's described thus in Wiki:

Knucklebones, or Jacks, is a game of very ancient origin, played with usually five small objects, originally the "knucklebones" (actually the astragalus: a bone in the ankle, or hock[1]) of a sheep, which are thrown up and caught in various ways.

Very Hermes-like!


Genius. Links together a whole number of threads. Thanks for this invaluable insight Penny.
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby spiral » 9:03 am

Boreades wrote: Which is quite different from the more inclusive branches like The Order of Bards, Ovates & Druids (OBOD), the The British Druid Order and the Druid Network. Those are open to male and female, and maybe could be described as Broad-Church Druidry?

There's a nice article on the Druid Network website on how some of their Gorsedd ritual was included in the Paralympics Closing Ceremony. That ritual was written by Philip Shallcrass and Emma Restall Orr.


Thanks for this. Very informative. I am afraid I am banned from most orders, for thwacking young females with birch twigs, and falling over my beard.

Political correctness gone mad.
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby Boreades » 11:10 am

spiral wrote:
Penny wrote: The game of jacks evolved from knuckle-bones. It's described thus in Wiki:

Knucklebones, or Jacks, is a game of very ancient origin, played with usually five small objects, originally the "knucklebones" (actually the astragalus: a bone in the ankle, or hock[1]) of a sheep, which are thrown up and caught in various ways.

Very Hermes-like!


Genius. Links together a whole number of threads. Thanks for this invaluable insight Penny.


Not to forget that Knucklebones were often used to cast tin ingots as well.
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby hvered » 12:07 am

Jackstraws, or pickup sticks, is a game that's still played. You throw a bundle of thin sticks and pick them up with another stick moving only one at a time. It requires a great deal of attention and patience. On the other hand there are elements of chance and secrecy, typical of Hermes, associated with straws as in drawing the short straw (bad luck).

Stick-throwing is said to have been a form of forecasting or divination, like casting lots. The ritual seems to be very ancient, perhaps it arises from laying sticks for kindling?
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby Marko » 10:21 am

Fire-sticks is interesting since corvids are, as we've seen, connected in myth to the origins of fire.

Birds, especially corvids, are associated with divination and, importantly for navigational purposes, direction. Examining a bird's gizzards can be very revealing to a knowledgeable eye.

Jackdaws are the smallest of the corvids, the joker in the pack perhaps. If Jack = joke, daw = fool, simpleton. The Fool is a stock character in medieval customs (Morris dances, May-games, etc.) which are surely of hoary antiquity. The Fool or double traditionally stands in for the King as his fall guy. The ‘Tommy’, or fool, often dressed in the skin and tail of a fox or some other animal, even a rabbit skin as in Baby Bunting.

Not forgetting 'Tom Thumb', a Puck-like trickster or 'evil twin' maybe. The word thumb is 'a swelling' as in tump; it should be the same word as dumb though, as with the Fool everywhere, Tom is quick-witted.
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby Stuart » 10:45 am

Jackdaws are very noisy and talkative as well as intelligent. Is the natterjack toad, which lives in dry sandy habitats and known for its loud mating call, significant?
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Re: Jack and the Beanstalk

Postby Boreades » 1:53 pm

hvered wrote:Jackstraws, or pickup sticks, is a game that's still played. You throw a bundle of thin sticks and pick them up with another stick moving only one at a time. It requires a great deal of attention and patience. On the other hand there are elements of chance and secrecy, typical of Hermes, associated with straws as in drawing the short straw (bad luck).

Stick-throwing is said to have been a form of forecasting or divination, like casting lots. The ritual seems to be very ancient, perhaps it arises from laying sticks for kindling?


Stick-throwing, in one form, goes all the way back to ancient Egypt. In the children's version of the story, the Lord spoke to Moses.

"So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent."

In the Hermetic version of the same story, this is a standard test of a magi's ability with animal hynosis or catalepsy. The Lord is initiating Moses and Aaron into the skills before they demonstrate their skills to the Pharaoh and other magicians, thus passing the test and becoming accepted

See http://www.robert-temple.com/articles/m ... w_dawn.pdf
and
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
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