Trade Secrets

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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby TisILeclerc » 8:53 am

Sound travels best over water, worst in woods


One of the reasons I posted the article from the beeb. The relevant bit regarding woods is below where whistles are used for communication in the Amazon wich is pretty dense.

Birds tend to be most vocal in the early morning. During the day they are busy hiding or hunting. Unless they issue a warning cry which is nothing like a bird song. And all birds whatever the species take flight or hide and shut up.


But the sounds can also penetrate dense forests such as the Amazon, where hunters whistle to locate each other through the dense foliage. “The whistles are good for fighting against reverberation,” says Meyer.


http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2017052 ... n-whistles

Is your idea that quackers and grunters were domesticated by man, or woman, and through evolution stopped singing?

As for the importance of swans and geese I think the answer lies above in the constellation Cygnus. I wrote previously that Callanish is shaped like a cross or a bird like a swan.

In Plato's Timaeus, Critias tells the story of Atlantis as recounted to Solon by an Egyptian priest, who prefaced the story by saying:

"There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story that even you [Greeks] have preserved, that once upon a time, Phaethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaethon

The Greeks also associated this constellation with the tragic story of Phaethon, the son of Helios the sun god, who demanded to ride his father's sun chariot for a day. Phaethon, however, was unable to control the reins, forcing Zeus to destroy the chariot (and Phaethon) with a thunderbolt, causing it to plummet to the earth into the river Eridanus. According to the myth, Phaethon's brother, Cycnus, grieved bitterly and spent many days diving into the river to collect Phaethon's bones to give him a proper burial. The gods were so touched by Cycnus's devotion to his brother that they turned him into a swan and placed him among the stars.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnus_(constellation)

Image

By IAU and Sky & Telescope magazine (Roger Sinnott & Rick Fienberg) - [1], CC BY 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.p ... d=15406373
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby hvered » 10:31 pm

Might singing and whistling be connected to flocking? Solitary animals presumably have little reason to 'project' their voices except when necessary such as seeking a mate or defending territory.

It's difficult to know if waterfowl would live in large or small groups 'in a state of nature'. Certainly swan colonies aren't a natural phenomenon so perhaps flocks of geese are arose from domestication.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby hvered » 6:54 am

Is your idea that quackers and grunters were domesticated by man, or woman, and through evolution stopped singing?

It would appear so, either accidentally or on purpose. When young birds are taken from their nests, there's no-one to teach them the 'family' song. Presumably they'd continue to sing, instinctively as it were, but maybe over time this trait does get lost?

It's noticeable domesticated fowl don't sing. They aren't mute of course, hens cluck and cockerels are notoriously noisy. Loud crowing is a desirable trait for a bird that guards a flock so it could be a natural trait that's retained because of not despite domestication.

Game birds generally inhabit open spaces such as moors and fields rather than woods, but don't sing. Peacocks which have a piercing shriek tradionally guarded a palace from the rooftop. Occasionally they ended up at banquets not unlike swans in Britain though their feathers are more beautiful.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby TisILeclerc » 8:31 am

Problem is lots of geese are migratory. They fly in from Russia or Canada. I'm sure if they wanted to sing they would with nobody to stop them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAo3X_BZLro


Peewits don't have much of a 'song' either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgOXeMj4ryM
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby hvered » 9:48 am

Mick Harper wrote: There may however be a correlation with size. Do any large birds sing? Or is it they can 'boom' because of the size of their chest cavity? Waterfowl, remember, have to be big.

I think Mick's correct. The question 'Why don't large birds sing?' isn't addressed presumably because no-one knows. Ornithologists have however analysed bird song and conclude that generally the larger the bird, the lower the song. They also say that sometimes birds will imitate the sounds of larger birds, whether successfully or not isn't stated.

The researchers add that low sounds have long wavelengths so presumably travel further.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby hvered » 7:17 am

Anglo-Saxonists say swan comes from Anglo-Saxon. It doesn't.

German, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish origins are all in the frame but etymologists to a man come up with the less than plausible meaning of 'singing bird'. Mind, they do add 'probably'. It may be that cygnus is similar enough to 'sing' to have led to a conflation, but no-one suggests this connection.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby Mick Harper » 11:10 am

Problem is lots of geese are migratory. They fly in from Russia or Canada. I'm sure if they wanted to sing they would with nobody to stop them.

Perhaps I haven't made myself clear. There is no suggestion that birds sing or do not sing because of anything Man might have done. The question before us is whether the noises made by birds that have a strong association with Man might be clues as to what their relationship with Man might have been.

So, for instance, and since you mention it, can the noises of geese that habitually migrate (and therefore can provisionally be presumed to be entirely wild and natural) be differentiated from geese (and I think swans would be considered geese) who do not migrate?
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby Boreades » 2:02 pm

An opportunity has arisen for us to join the Heritage Tin Smelting elite.

Tamar Union Smelting Works, Weir Quay

A rare opportunity to acquire an historic former Tin Smelting Works in an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty which has been carefully renovated and restored by our vendors. Located close to the River Tamar, The Works are Grade II Listed and comprise of a number of former outbuildings and warehouses involved with the smelting process and, in total, approach 10,000 sq ft. In recent times part of The Works have been converted into a 2 double bedroom reverse level house (The Count House) plus a separate potential 3 bedroom reverse level house (The Jam Factory), the latter still requiring completion. The remaining buildings have endless possibilities subject to the relevant planning permissions and listed building consents. The site occupies a private position amounting to approximately 0.605 acres with various courtyards, garden areas and ample off-road parking. Furthermore there is an attractive deciduous wood of approximately 1.8 acres which overlooks the whole site. An opportunity not to be missed to become a custodian of property within a World Heritage Site, Site of Special Scientific Interest and an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty.


https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-fo ... 79437.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... uErvDjXFUE

Important note: we don't have to actually get dirty and do real work. As it's in a World Heritage Site, Site of Special Scientific Interest and an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, the most demanding work will be form-filling and applying for heritage grants for a TME Tin Smelting Theme Park.

But you can dress up in period costume if you like.
Like at Morwellham Quay, just round a few bends of the Tamar.
https://www.morwellham-quay.co.uk/
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby Boreades » 6:33 pm

Chateau Boreades, on behalf of TME, has negotiated a special deal for TME Inmates on Day Release.

English Heritage Trade Admission Prices & Opening Times 2020/21

Please download our admission prices for next season (Valid 1 April 2020 - 26 March 2021). Standard pricing (before group discounts) for adult, concession (65+) and children (5-17 inclusive) are shown for each property. For groups of 11 or more we offer a 10% discount at Stonehenge and a 15% discount at all other sites.


Clickety link
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby Boreades » 8:23 pm

Are you sitting comfortably?

"Frightening new drama podcast"
Says Al Beeb.

Mia Brake and her archaeometrist father Adam move to Milbury, a village framed by an ancient stone circle. But all is not right in Milbury. The stones emit a strange power. The villagers are eerily happy, greeting each other with the unnerving phrase "Happy Day!" And at the village school the other children can solve incredibly complex mathematical problems. As one-by-one her friends join the Happy People, Mia must uncover the secret of the stones. Children of the Stones is a new adaptation of the cult 1977 television series - described by comedian Stewart Lee as 'the scariest programme ever made for children."


Episode 1
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08tk8ff

We could tell them the secret. But that would be telling.
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