Trade Secrets

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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby Mick Harper » 8:07 am

The shortest overland route through France? Why does it imply the tin was taken to Normandy?

Firstly because the Roman source says

Here then the merchants buy the tin from the natives and carry it over to Gaul

The simplest interpretation of which is 'across the Channel'. The voyage to the Garonne is hardly 'over to Gaul'. The Romans hated all the Atlantic trade routes.

The shortest overland route through France is to sail south from Cornwall to the mouth of the Garonne. Sail or barge cargo up the river to Toulouse, the point at which the river turns south toward its source in the Pyrenees. From here cargo is taken overland via the Carcassonne gap through Montpelier to the mouth of the Rhone,

Too efficient surely. The source says

and after travelling overland for about thirty days, they finally bring their loads on horses to the mouth of the Rhone

Ten miles a day on horseback, 300 miles, points to Normandy not the Garonne.

which in ancient times was probably Arles or even Beaucaire but certainly not Marseille. This has been the main trading thoroughfare from the Atlantic to the Med since ancient times.

Precisely so. However the Greeks (aka the Romans) always preferred Marseille. But either works for me.

St Michael's Mount is the best departure point for the Garonne.

Undoubtedly. It is also the best departure point for anywhere in the Mediterranean, including the mouth of the Rhone, by sea, which is why it was so vital for the Phoenician trade. (I haven't dealt with Michael's Mount yet.) The hinterland of Gaul was not part of the Phoenician trade. That's the whole point of the exercise: to show that the Megalithics were an independent trading network. Quite separate from the Phoenicians.

But in general you are making the error of simply considering in isolation the best way to get tin from Western Britain to the mouth of the Rhone. This is certainly by ship all the way. For all I know it is even better by ship and trans-shipment at the Garonne.

But once you start considering that the whole of Gaul, the whole of inland Western Europe is part of the Bronze Age and must therefore have had oodles of tin brought to all parts (whether as tin or as bronze finished goods) then it is obvious that the last thing you would do is laboriously lug everything by sea to the Mediterranean (or to the Garonne) and then start distributing from there.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby hvered » 11:19 am

At the westernmost point of Brittany (Finistère) is a group or archipelago of islands, the largest being Molène (Molenez in Breton means 'bald' apparently).

The area is known as the Celtic or Irish Sea, Mer d'Iroise, and navigationally hazardous but the Molènes could provide useful anchorages, though reefs, strong currents and tidal races suggest passing between Ouessant, the most westernly island, and Molène is the best route. This region of Brittany is called Cornouaille i.e. Cornwall and the Molene archipelago seems similar to the Scillies.

Not sure if the pool in the pic is a 'Venus pool'.

Image

Quessant or Ushant, according to Wiki, has a tidal island

The community and only port are located to the east of the island, opposite a small island called the Lédénes of Molène that becomes connected at low tide.

Lédénes may refer to dunes.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby spiral » 5:31 pm

Mick Harper wrote:Undoubtedly. It is also the best departure point for anywhere in the Mediterranean, including the mouth of the Rhone.

Yes but you wouldn't want to aim at it from the opposite direction, if you're blown to the west you are buggered.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby macausland » 6:01 pm

Have you come across this site by Christopher Long?

He discusses the tin trade in the middle ages but a lot of what he says must have applied to earlier times with regard to transport of tin etc.

He says quite a bit about Guernsey as part of the transport network as well as the role of monks. Apparently they were quite adept at forging documents giving them control and ownership of various places.

http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/oth/msm-smmtin.html
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby hvered » 8:38 am

macausland wrote:Have you come across this site by Christopher Long?

He discusses the tin trade in the middle ages but a lot of what he says must have applied to earlier times with regard to transport of tin etc.


Yes indeed, this is the most interesting site on St Michael and the tin trade that I've seen. It is sensible, obvious even, to marry up Long's research with the conclusions of prehistorians who have demonstrated that the transport of tin, essential in bronze, must have been widespread and organised. Still a step too far it seems. Maybe the study of organised trade is more acceptable when presented by anthropologists from a safe distance.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby Mick Harper » 8:53 am

Extract Twenty-Nine

So, another mysterious group of monks. What is quite baffling is why people ensconced on Herm following presumably a contemplative life of the mind, should care one way or the other – even notice – when a strip of land extending out to an uninhabited island should be washed away. It passes all understanding why this incredibly jejuene fact should be have survived the vicissitudes of time to become roughly 50% of all that is known about these people.

Except of course by now we can hazard an educated guess. The monks were on Herm because of the causeway to Jethou. They superintended it in exactly the same way that the Michael monks on the next door island built their priory on the causeway between the Vale and Guernsey and the Lihou Island monks built their priory on the causeway between Lihou Island and Guernsey. Which was presumably for the same reason that Michael monks built monasteries on causewayed tidal islands at Mont St Michel, Michael’s Mount and Burgh Island.. We may not yet know quite why these people were obsessed with their causeways but a contemplative life of the mind doesn’t seem to be the most pressing consideration.

We do not know what kind of monks lived on Herm but we can certainly link Herm with Michael. Hermes is Michael. Hermes is officially the Greek version of Mercury and is in turn the Classical version of Woden and Thoth. They all carry out parallel tasks, most notably accompanying the dead to wherever the dead go in their respective religions. Actually the two Channel Island languages bear witness to the link because the middle day of the week is known as either Wednesday (from Woden, English) or Mêrcrédi (from Mercury, Norman French Patois). But under whatever name, as the Interflora logo suggests, he is in charge of travel arrangements.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby spiral » 10:20 am

Mick Harper wrote:So, another mysterious group of monks. What is quite baffling is why people ensconced on Herm following presumably a contemplative life of the mind, should care one way or the other – even notice – when a strip of land extending out to an uninhabited island should be washed away. It passes all understanding why this incredibly jejuene fact should be have survived the vicissitudes of time to become roughly 50% of all that is known about these people.

We may not yet know quite why these people were obsessed with their causeways but a contemplative life of the mind doesn’t seem to be the most pressing consideration.




They are observational. St Peters is an observatory of sun and stars. Religion contra to orthodoxy is the very foundation not the enemy of science. Here our scientist monks are less interested in the sun but more in waves and wind. In fact your Venus pools are wind and wave tanks, the causeways measure the tides. I reckon your clergy by measuring days tides and direction of wind could collate information and then charge a fortune for this privileged information.....

Err maybe.....
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby spiral » 11:17 am

The combination of pools and causeways is even more spectacular than stonehenge observatory when correctly understood.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby Mick Harper » 11:30 am

My sentiments entirely, Spiro. The purpose of this work -- soon to be a three part Megalithic trilogy on DVD -- is to show that the the pre-classical world was not just vastly more sophisticated than the orthodoxers believe but much less crazy than the Crazies believe.

Your observations about causeways and tides are noted. The Venus Pools' function is now known but the purpose of causeways and why they are put on tidal islands (and why tidal islands are constructed) is still a complete mystery. Your comments are all very well but surely everything you say could be conducted just as easily on an ordinary shore. Why bother with tidal islands and causeways? The tide, the stars etc are just the same.
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Re: Trade Secrets

Postby spiral » 1:26 pm

Kipper me capstans! The Black Pig is finally afloat.
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