Who Built The Stones?

[Mick Harper]

A very good point. Archaeos assume stuff that is buried must be for 'ritualistic purposes' i.e. top of the range. Or worse, if it's chucked in the nearest lake it must be 'for the Gods'. Yes, you're really on to something there, Borry. I'm glad I thought of it.

[Boreades]

As ever they don't tell us what these genomes are or how they differ from any other genome. Are they worried about getting into a 'racist/racial' debate?

And as for the natives being swamped, oh dear. Not PC really.

'The previous inhabitants had just put up the big stones at Stonehenge...' Sounds like the Hitch Hiker's Guide. I suppose the worthy natives had just put the last touch of paint on when the Vogons arrived and said that's got to come down.

The idea that for a few thousand years there were massive structures built by a very sophisticated and skilled people doesn't seem to come into it.

Cue David Attenborough.

And now, if we keep very still, we can see the first arrival of the very first Planning Enforcement Officers from the new Overlords Planning Department. If we keep very quiet, we can hear their cries as well.

You can't build that there.
Have you got planning permission?
It's round, that's got to stop, we're only doing square now.
That timber and thatch roof has got to come off.
It's the fire regulations you know.

[TisILeclerc]

Hello Sailor, is that a megalith in your pocket?

Admiral Harper wanted on the bridge. Someone's pinching your ideas.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... shion.html

Stonehenge is one of many megalithic monuments from prehistory dotted around Europe and scientists have now discovered the art form of giant rocks was a popular trend that started 6,500 years ago in France.

The knowledge and expertise to create these monuments was then spread around Europe by sailors over the following millennia.

Similar monuments to the original appeared in coastal regions around the Mediterranean and Atlantic coasts via sailors on large ships using emerging sea routes.

'They were moving over the seaway, taking long distance journeys along the coasts,' Dr Schulz Paulsson, one of the study's co-authors from the University of Gothenburg, told New Scientist.

This fits with other research she has carried out on megalithic art in Brittany, which shows engravings of many boats, some large enough for a crew of 12.

They don't say exactly why, perhaps an early form of scrimshaw for lonely sailors?

Anyway I'd get that megalithic empire label trademarked toot sweet before they take over completely.

[Mick Harper]

Actually the aim is to have it taken over. Preferably with acknowledgement but it's not essential. No acknowledgement is probably quicker for reasons to do with not wishing to be seen supping with devils. I doubt though the frau doktor got anything from the likes of us. She certainly wouldn't like to hear we've recently taken the Goth out of Gothenburg. The map by the way is nothing new, there's something similar on P31 of TME and we got it from standard sources. I wouldn't myself put too much store by the chronology -- the early date for Brittany, for instance, probably reflects Carnac's role in providing megaliths rather than originating them -- but it's probably the best yet.

As usual the strain imposed by not wishing to jeopardise existing paradigms shows up pretty clearly. She doesn't really believe in the unity of the system, which is why she hurries art into the picture. Art spreads any old how. It's a good example of academic 'chat' i.e. something that sounds plausible until you ask, "OK, now give us a known example of the same phenomenon." We always go with function over form. If they're all similar, they're all for the same purpose. Installation art for sailors wouldn't be our first guess as to what that purpose was. Bit on the pricey side even with a Megalithic Arts Council grant.

PS I had to look up scrimshaw!

[TisILeclerc]

Why do documentary makers insist in turning interesting material into senseless crap with little or no substance. I imagine this lot are Mercan.

Anyway somebody has found a henge in the sea off Orkney and they've done a tiny wee exploration of it and that's all you get. But, could be interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHOuLgAzeYU

[Mick Harper]

It got less convincing with greater precision but even so...

[TisILeclerc]

The gaelic for Orkney is Arcaibh. I would suggest Arc means Arc and not pigs or whales or any other such thing flapping about in the water or on land.

Why would it be Arc? Well, they did go in for stone circles and things which all involve arcs. Archaeologists seem content with the idea now that Orkney predates Stonehenge so it could be that the circle builders started out from there or were mainly based in the area.

Why? Well, if you are mapping a new land you need points of reference and what better than to build working observation posts. Even the Chinese were in on similar games.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulation_(surveying)


First build a circle out of something permanent and perhaps set these markers according to stars or something else more or less permanent. Once this is set up it's a simple task to use triangulation techniques. And build new circles at selected points on the horizon etc.

In 1533, he described for the first time the method of triangulation still used today in surveying (see diagram). Having established a baseline, e.g., in this case, the cities of Brussels and Antwerp, the location of other cities, e.g. Middelburg, Ghent etc., can be found by taking a compass direction from each end of the baseline, and plotting where the two directions cross. This was only a theoretical presentation of the concept — due to topographical restrictions, it is impossible to see Middelburg from either Brussels or Antwerp. Nevertheless, the figure soon became well known all across Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemma_Frisius

For more information on degrees of curvature etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_of_curvature

And almost due south of Orkney is Torquay. Not the same name I admit but I would imagine that similar names would be used for identification purposes.

[Mick Harper]

I think Cadiz, fits the bill better than Torquay.

Archaeologists seem content with the idea now that Orkney predates Stonehenge it could be that the circle builders started out from there or were mainly based in the area.

Just as the Orkneys seem to be the earliest, so they also say that Cadiz is the earliest (city in Western Europe).

if you are mapping a new land you need points of reference and what better than to build working observation posts.

Surely the Orkneys themselves don't need mapping. Can't you see for yourself anywhere you might want to go? But for base lines, yes.

Even the Chinese were in on similar games.

Feng shui has a principle similar to the one you describe: a 'mountain' (sighting post) has to be placed to the north of a city and water (flat surface) to the south. But where you need to place these navigational infrastructural points is the issue. Thus Orkney is at one end of the western European littoral, Cadiz at the other end. These places are fixed so they may not naturally offer what you need. In Cadiz they built the Medina and maybe the spit but it's more difficult in the Orkneys. Or maybe easier, it's difficult to tell (no pun intended). Plenty of spits though.

[Boreades]

Not sure if I've ever mentioned this before, but a while ago I had the chance to talk to a geologist attached to English Heritage, looking after Avebury Stone Circle.

I asked what kind of stones were used at Avebury. The first answer was “Oh, they’re sarsen stones”.

Yes, but what are the sarsen stones made of? “Oh, these are concreted alluvial deposits”.

I asked “Oh, you mean they’re made of concrete, like some of the Egyptian pyramid stones?”.

At this point the English Heritage geologist was starting to look a bit scared, so I stopped asking awkward questions. And yet : some other geologists like Steve Marshall are more enquiring. They’ve noted many curious things about the sarsens at Avebury:

'Silica Glaze' - smooth, shiny patches of silica are found on some stones, resembling a thick, transparent pottery glaze.
'Sticky areas' are rough, with sharp peaks like cake icing. The sarsen appears to have become sticky before it set hard.

For more details, see http://exploringavebury.com/geology

They have even made their own geopolymer sarsen stones. For the recipe, see: http://exploringavebury.com/assets/uplo ... 0Stone.pdf

After three years:

it resembled mortar made with Portland cement but seemed to be even harder.

If you want to make Egyptian-style limestone geopolymer, there are some good videos online.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQk_yB ... tion=share

Their recipe?

they use old disaggregated (rotted) limestone rubble as their major material at 95% of solids. The binder is made from a mixture of kaolin clay, natron (sodium carbonate aka washing soda) and lime in water. The natural limestone in Egypt contains the kaolin already, but their source in the video didn’t have it, so it was added. Natron is found in the Egyptian desert, and lime is made by burning limestone. The water (12-17% of solid volume), natron, clay and lime are mixed in a large tub, then the limestone aggregate is added. As a damp squishable material like wet beach sand, it is dumped in layers into a wooden mold and tamped. In 4 hours it sets up and in a few days it is fully hardened. It looks like real limestone.

Other recipes are available.

And then (of course) there are the Tiwanaku / Pumapunku "Megaliths"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf9qK9QTlq0

[Mick Harper]

This is mega, no pun intended, and should be reposted on the AEL in a thread of your choice.