New Views over Megalithia

[Mick Harper]

I don't violently disagree with any of this. I too was struck by Pearson's foot. I haven't really kept up but I wasn't sure whether orthodoxy had accepted the idea of a Golden Metric Norm and was on the hunt for how long it was, how long it lasted and how long was its reach, or finds the whole idea risible given their general view of the long ago.

[Boreades]

Chaidh clachan ùra a lorg aig A' Chomraicha tha coisrigte do Máel Ruba.

[Boreades]

Ma wee cousin Doogie MacBoreades sends news from north of the border.

New Stone Age: Discovery of massive island ritual site

The discovery of a cursus monument site at Tormore on the Isle of Arran, which is more than a kilometre long, is helping to reshape Neolithic history in Scotland with such landmarks usually associated with the east coast.

You'll just have to be patient whle we get past the usual "high status elite ritual" stuff.

Cursus monuments were often defined by long lines of timber posts, forming a long rectangle, and were amongst the most spectacular features in the Neolithic landscape. The posts may have served as a procession route, perhaps to honour the dead.

Dave Cowley, Rapid Archaeological Mapping Programme Manager at Historic Environment Scotland, says

"I think if you asked the survey team what they thought they were most likely to find on Arran, I would bet you no one would say a Neolithic cursus monument

I bet no one will not say that as they get LIDAR over more west coast causeways.

“There is no other on Arran, its unique on the island, there is one more in Kilmartin Glen and that is pretty much it for the western seaboard.

It's unique, apart from the other ones.

“What this example at Tormore tells is there are probably actually many more on them but because they were built from timber, you are not likely to see them in the unimproved peat landscape of the west coast

Until they get LIDAR over more west coast causeways.



https://www.scotsman.com/heritage-and-r ... te-3105420

[Mick Harper]

I was a bit miffed by this discovery when I read about it, to be honest. The theory put forward in Megalithic Empire is that cursuses are designed to intercept travellers who have missed their mark, returning them safely to their immediate destination. I couldn't imagine that the Isle of Arran would be large enough to require such (is it?). On the other hand this kind of cursus only needs to be a) reasonably long lasting and b) impossible not to stumble past, so a simple low, wide earthwork is sufficient. No wood is required. So these sound like 'not-cursuses' which since archaeologists supposed them to be Roman race-courses, hence the name, gives plenty of scope.

Let's have some Scotch Theories. Maybe the hilly terrain makes line-of-sight navigation difficult, requiring constant pointers in the right direction.

[Boreades]

At first, I couldn't remember where Tormore is, and had to find it in this guide to the local geology.
https://geologyglasgow.org.uk/docs/017_ ... 480959.pdf

That let me pinpoint the location on old 6-inch maps
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=1 ... rs=168&b=1

It was only then that I realised we've been very close to that area before (within one kilometre), with the Machrie Moor Standing Stones and stone circles.

https://www.geograph.org.uk/mapper/comb ... 74/-5.3246
and
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Machr ... -5.3109026
and
https://www.historicenvironment.scot/vi ... ng-stones/
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machrie_M ... ne_Circles

Six stone circles are visible on the moor immediately east of the derelict Moss Farm.[1] Some circles are formed of granite boulders, while others are built of tall red sandstone pillars. The moor is covered with other prehistoric remains, including standing stones, burial cairns and cists. The stone circles are positioned over previous timber circles. A radiocarbon date of 2030 ± 180 BCE has been found for the timber circle at Machrie Moor . Several hut circles can also be seen as low rings of turf-covered stone.

[Boreades]

The theory put forward in Megalithic Empire is that cursuses are designed to intercept travellers who have missed their mark, returning them safely to their immediate destination. I couldn't imagine that the Isle of Arran would be large enough to require such (is it?). .

How long's a piece of cursus string for travellers? I just plotted a run round the perimeter of Arran, it's 99.85Km. About 60 miles. I'm struggling, however, to find any navigational reason for the cursus being where it is, unless it's a route from Blackmoorfoot (on the coast) to the Machrie / Tormore area.

Just noticed that one place just south of Machrie is just called Ashlar.

[Boreades]

Stray neurons moment!

What was the coastline of the Western Isles like 5,000 years ago?
e.g. Orkney

Orkney 10,000 years ago was a very different place. The islands comprised a single land mass and many of the lands settled by Orkney’s early inhabitants now lie underwater

https://www.abdn.ac.uk/staffpages/uploa ... e%2009.pdf

Or was it anything like the Scilly Isle (singular) which didn't become plural isles until land dropped &/or sea levels rose, and that maybe post-Roman times.

If Arran was still joined to Kintyre and/or Bute (back then) that could profoundly change the landscape and the navigational options.

That part of Arran is important for one of Scotland's most enduring creation myths as well.

On the west coast of Arran, King’s Cave is where Sir Walter Scott said the 14th-century King Robert the Bruce encountered the struggling spider while he was defeated and on the run. It was that spider’s determination to spin its web that inspired Bruce to return to the mainland and defeat the English army.

https://www.visitarran.com/what-to-see- ... kings-cave



Scotland's answer to Petra? (Knights Templar reference)

Footnote for Tisi: To gain deeper insight, we may need to assist the local economy.
https://www.visitarran.com/what-to-see- ... -breweries

[PeterC]

Hello, first time posting. Only recently saw a video of the talk at Megolithimania and then followed up by an excited blast through Megalithic empire.

The main reason for my excitement was that it seemed to link together things I’d noticed in my local landscape; I continued Mick’s new Michael line, from the direction of Mont St. Michel to Burgh (Michael) island until it joined the Michael line proper. As I predicted they intersect at St Michaels, Brentor (formerly beacon tor). This line nicely hugs the edge of Dartmoor meaning that Ingot movers emerging from the Tamar Valley or from Exmoor could follow the Michael line to Brentor and then follow the ‘new’ Michael line to Burgh Island without dealing with too much Dartmoor or winding up in Plymouth (something people desperately avoid still today).

My local church Walkhampton sits atop a promontory on the edge of the moor with a clear line of sight to Brentor with a few straight roads, fords and crossroads inbetween. Walkhampton Church is supposedly build on a megalithic site; no remains are obvious other than some massive granite gate posts casually reused in the local fields. However, the church does have a couple of other megalithic features - it sits on an almost unrecognisable crossroads made of mainly ancient drove ways and footpaths, the church apparently (according to Wikipedia, looking for confirmation) was dedicated to St Dionysius, the church house, apparently the old vicarage, has been used as an inn, and finally, most damning of all, the church’s alignment is not east/west, but northeast/southwest and is supposedly the alignment of the previous structure. It has been suggested that this refers to midsummer sunrise, which is in fact much further north that the church points, but I feel like the alignment is at a right angle to the ley line it respects.

The line can be traced onwards to Yennadon Down which, although is historically featureless, today has a stand of tress that is visible for miles. Just downhill is a ford (meavy) which is surrounded by ancient oaks, unusual for an area that was pretty much treeless only 150 years ago (the village of Meavy also contains an ancient ‘Royal Oak’ and a pub bearing the same name). The line seems to continue towards the Dewerstone (Devon’s only ‘enclosed’ tor) and then on to Boringdon Camp, Iron Age site.

It gets sticky here as we now get to where the Chiba clay works are that have completely altered the landscape and then into the south hams where farmers and second home owners have made their impact on the surrounding areas.
Possibly a cross roads at Hermedon? Nothing to do with Hermes historians say….

Thank you for turning me on to the opportunity of possibly rediscovering something which has been unknown for a millennia. Get on Google Earth and see if you agree or not

[Mick Harper]

You're most welcome though you'll find most of the action is nowadays going on over at our other site http://www.applied-epistemology.com/phpbb2/index.php

I continued Mick’s new Michael line, from the direction of mont st.michel to burgh(Michael) island until it joined the Michael line proper. As I predicted they intersect at St Michaels, Brentor (formerly beacon tor). This line nicely hugs the edge of Dartmoor meaning that Ingot movers emerging from the Tamar Valley or from Exmoor could follow the Michael line to brentor and then follow the ‘new’ Michael line to burgh island without dealing with too much Dartmoor or winding up in Plymouth (something people desperately avoid still today).

Very useful. We latterly assumed that Plymouth Sound is itself the after-effects of tin mining.

My local church Walkhampton sits a top a promontory on the edge of the moor with a clear line of sight to Brentor with a few straight roads, fords and crossroads inbetween. Walkhampton Church is supposedly build on a megalithic site; no remains are obvious other than some massive granite gate posts casually reused in the local fields. However, the church does have a couple of other megalithic features - it sits on an almost unrecognisable crossroads made of mainly ancient drove ways and footpaths, the church apparently (according to Wikipedia, looking for confirmation) was dedicated to St Dionysius, the church house, apparently the old vicarage, has been used as an inn and finally, most damning of all, the church’s alignment is not east/west, but northeast/southwest and is supposedly the alignment of the previous structure. It has been suggested that this refers to midsummer sunrise, which is in fact much further north that the church points, but I feel like the alignment is at a right angle to the ley line it respects.

You seem to have a good nose for bogus explanations. The trouble is that there are two competing sets of experts -- the academics and the crazies -- who seem to have no idea of what constitutes evidence and what is wishful thinking.

The line can be traced onwards to Yennadon Down which, although is historically featureless, today has a stand of tress that is visible for miles.

This is one of the odder Megalithic markers. As you say, these stands of trees look for all the world to be artificial waymarkers yet, unlike most of the Megalithic infrastructure, do not seem able to pass the test of time.

Just down hill is a ford (Meavy) which is surrounded by ancient oaks, unusual for an area that was pretty much treeless only 150 years ago (the village of Meavy also contains an ancient ‘Royal Oak’ and a pub bearing the same name).

As long as Charles II didn't hide up it.

The line seems to continue towards the dewerstone (Devon’s only ‘enclosed’ tor) and then on to boringdon camp, Iron Age site.

'Dewerstones' is a new one on me. More please.

Get on Google Earth and see if you agree or not

If you think I am capable of operating Google Earth you've come to the wrong man. I keep house serfs to do that sort of thing.

[PeterC]

I’ll head on over to the new site and check it out.

But just quickly - the Dewerstone is a tor/Rocky outcrop over looking where the River Plym joins the River Meavy. The side of the hill is covered in industrial revolution-era mining relics so I imagine like the rest of area has been used as such for millennia.

What makes it unique is that it’s a Neolithic/Bronze Age enclosed tor. These are basically only found in Cornwall. I actually think the only two outside of Cornwall are in Devon, and the Dewerstone is one of them. It is a very easy to pick out landmark, visible from many places around despite the generally high elevation of the area. Pretty sure it has associated pixie myths like many places locally and Bronze Age settlements are still visible above ground in spitting distance.

Fair point about Google Earth, I’ve been using google maps for years and calling it Google Earth until someone told me there was a difference.