Megalithic shipping and trade routes

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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 10:04 pm

Musing on how the gold would have ended-up in Ireland, I recall that Ireland (or parts of) was famous for its copper mines, and its slave trade. See St.Patrick (again)

Perhaps there was a three-way trade route?

1) Ships coming north from Brittany and beyond, with wine, oil, dried fruits and spices, heading into Cornwall.
2) Trading in Cornwall for Cornish tin and some gold.
3) Sailing from there to Southern Ireland
4) Trading the gold for Irish copper, wool and slaves.
5) Returning south with the tin, copper, wool and slaves.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 10:34 pm

The ancient Irish seem to have had a tradition of supplying people to other nations. DNA profiling of Icelandic folk shows the X-chromosome is mainly Irish and Scots, not Viking.

Barbary Pirates get the blame for the Sack of Baltimore, but why they would want Pilchard Processors is a bit odd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore

But that kind of trade is surely a source of great confusion for any DNA profiling. How can we tell which direction the genes were moving? Like, we've commented on music documentaries that focus on great similarities between music from west-coast Ireland and North Africa. At the time, I think we assumed it meant folk (and their music) had flowed north from Africa to Ireland. But it could equally as well been the other way round.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Mick Harper » 12:34 pm

A Norwegian correspondent (who wants TME translated into Norwegian!) has sent me the following re Irish gold.

Archaeologists at the University of Southampton have found evidence of an ancient gold trade route between the south-west of the UK and Ireland. A study suggests people were trading gold between the two countries as far back as the early Bronze Age (2500BC).

The research, in collaboration with the University of Bristol, used a new technique to measure the chemical composition of some of the earliest gold artefacts in Ireland. Findings show the objects were actually made from imported gold, rather than Irish. Furthermore, this gold is most likely to have come from Cornwall. Lead author Dr Chris Standish says: "This is an unexpected and particularly interesting result as it suggests that Bronze Age gold workers in Ireland were making artefacts out of material sourced from outside of the country, despite the existence of a number of easily-accessible and rich gold deposits found locally
.


This amplifies what Borry has reported. But notice that the academic recognises that this is an odd situation.

"It is unlikely that knowledge of how to extract gold didn't exist in Ireland, as we see large scale exploitation of other metals. It is more probable that an 'exotic' origin was cherished as a key property of gold and was an important reason behind why it was imported for production."


This is potty. Gold is gold, certainly when it is made into objects. What on earth is exotic gold?

The researchers used an advanced technique called laser ablation mass spectrometry to sample gold from 50 early Bronze Age artefacts in the collections of the National Museum of Ireland, such as; basket ornaments, discs and lunula (necklaces). They measured isotopes of lead in tiny fragments and made a comparison with the composition of gold deposits found in a variety of locations. After further analysis, the archaeologists concluded that the gold in the objects most likely originates from Cornwall, rather than Ireland -- possibly extracted and traded as part of the tin mining industry.


Two points here: first it would appear that you can't exactly fingerprint gold, which is a nuisance. But he correctly guesses that it is likely to be a by-product.

Dr Standish says: "Perhaps what is most interesting is that during this time, compared to Ireland, there appears to be much less gold circulating in Cornwall and southern Britain. This implies gold was leaving the region because those who found it felt it was of more value to trade it in for other 'desirable' goods -- rather than keep it."


This is a weird way of saying that gold was relatively cheap in Cornwall because it was a by-product. That of course is why it is used in Ireland -- it is cheaper than local mined gold. Which supports our contention that tin/copper mining must itself have been on a large scale and on an efficient basis.

Today, gold is intrinsically linked with economic wealth, is universally exchangeable and underpins currencies and economies across much of the globe. However, gold may not always have had this value -- in some societies, gold was seen to embody supernatural or magical powers, playing a major role in belief systems rather than economic ones. The value and significance placed on gold may have varied from region to region.


We're back in 'ritual purposes' territory. If trade is going on it is overwhelmingly likely that gold was a commodity like any other. What the locals did with it is another matter.

Dr Alistair Pike, a co-author from the University of Southampton, adds: "The results of this study are a fascinating finding. They show that there was no universal value of gold, at least until perhaps the first gold coins started to appear nearly two thousand years later. Prehistoric economies were driven by factors more complex than the trade of commodities -- belief systems clearly played a major role."


This is horse manure. Gold mining in pre-historic Ireland, like everywhere else and everywhen else, is strictly a matter of price versus extraction costs. Cheap Cornish gold simply meant that only exceptionally productive Irish gold mines would come on stream.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 1:45 pm

We concur.

As Ireland has its own history of alluvial gold mining, there were some local supplies, but demand in Ireland must have outstripped the local supply.

e.g. - Records of mining date back to the Bronze Age (ca 2000 B.C.) when southwest Ireland was an important copper producer and alluvial gold was also worked for the production of gold artefacts. - http://www.mineralsireland.ie/Mining+in+Ireland/

There are still dedicated amateurs panning for gold in them there hills of Ireland, Wales, Devon and Cornwall.

Serious commercial finds are still being found:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ma ... 97553.html

Sometimes you just get lucky.

Image

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... beach.html
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 11:35 pm

That might be a nice theme for this year's TME Summer Works Outing. Panning for gold in Megalithic rivers. Bring your own bucket, spade and flipflops. Hattie, you'll have to keep Mick off the cider this year.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby TisILeclerc » 7:34 am

Tony Robinson did a series on the 'Birth of Britain', one of which was about gold.

You've probably seen it but as I haven't had a television since the sixties, honest officer, these programmes come to me second hand via youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQaT6IVIzs0

He does a bit of panning for gold and there is a discussion on where to find the stuff and how it's apparently difficult to see never mind find.

Also of interest is a bit on why the Romans went straight to north Wales and extracted all the gold there by washing away hillsides. What the Romans did for the Welsh no doubt.

He also has a look at Devon gold and how it is quite special in that it tends to be crystallised. As well as the Irish connection.

The final note is on the discovery that northern Ireland is full of the stuff and plans are afoot for its extraction.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 7:58 pm

Boreades wrote:Musing on how the gold would have ended-up in Ireland, I recall that Ireland (or parts of) was famous for its copper mines, and its slave trade. See St.Patrick (again)

Perhaps there was a three-way trade route?

1) Ships coming north from Brittany and beyond, with wine, oil, dried fruits and spices, heading into Cornwall.
2) Trading in Cornwall for Cornish tin and some gold.
3) Sailing from there to Southern Ireland
4) Trading the gold for Irish copper, wool and slaves.
5) Returning south with the tin, copper, wool and slaves.


I don't think I've got this right. Bronze is at least 90% copper. The Tin content is c.5%, maybe a little higher in a high-strength bronze. Crudely speaking, it's 20 times more copper than tin, by weight and by volume. This has implication for the trade logistics.

How so?

Let's imagine you've arrived in Cornwall/Devon with your exotic Mediterranean goodies, done a bit of trading, got some tin and gold. Lovely Jubbly, right? Except it's no good filling the ship with tin, when you need 20x that amount in copper to make bronze. Neither would it make sense wasting valuable cargo space by sailing to Ireland with the cargo space mostly empty in anticipation of filling it with copper later.

If Cornish gold and tin were being traded to Ireland, in small volumes compared to the volume of copper they were going to collect in Ireland, then something else must have been filling the spare space.

But what?
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 8:54 pm

It won't count if you say they filled the spare space with Druids and/or Celtic Saints.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Mick Harper » 8:58 pm

This probably won't be appropriate in this case but I was kinda on the job with my Glastonbury lecture when I pointed out this general problem re Cornwall, maybe re Britain generally, ie when valuable stuff is going one way and not much t'other. Actually it's even more problematic because cargo ships actually need ballasting if there is no return load.

This was, I opined, the origin of the Chausey Islands (and the other ones I've forgotten the name of south of Jersey) which are mined out granite quarries, granite being the return cargo and/or ballast for the West Britain - Western France copper and tin trade.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 10:18 pm

The Condor route is not a problem, because high volumes of grain and ironware were exported from pre-Roman Dorset ports to France, in return for the exotic goodies. Guernsey and Jersey were necessary way-ports to cope with prevailing winds and tides.

It's the Devon & Cornwall trade that's problematic. What were the high-volume exports? Pasties and clotted cream came later.
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