Megalithic shipping and trade routes

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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby TisILeclerc » 5:48 pm

Shouldn't that be accessible at low tide? I'm sure they could get there by boat at high tide if there was no way by foot otherwise like Lindisfarne low tide is a better time to walk the water I would have thought.

I was struck by the venerable organisation's statement

The Trust tries to work with nature, rather than against it, to allow the natural processes to take place.


http://www.ywt.org.uk/reserves/spurn-nature-reserve

I've noticed that all of these publicly funded organisations like to 'work with nature'. Usually far away from London where it doesn't matter if the coastline gets washed away, or houses and roads etc. Happens all the time in Yorkshire.

But London is too precious. Nature is not allowed to trouble that hallowed place hence the Flood Defences.

Which, I believe need renewing.

Unfortunately the London government killed all steel working and engineering off in Middlesbrough where it was made.

So, is it back to Germany for permission to save London with a new Krupps made engineering marvel to prevent a watery blitzkrieg on such a deserving city?
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Mick Harper » 5:52 pm

Only complete berks like the Germans keep up a steel industry.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby hvered » 7:48 am

Yes, sorry, meant to say accessible at low tide. But the situation is not new

A glance at the First Edition Six-inch Ordnance Survey Map of 1852 shows the peninsula as a string of islands with the Point totally cut off from the mainland and named as ‘Spurn Island’.


Working with nature probably means leave things alone. In the case of Spurn the currents can 'augment' as well as erode

A chart of 1828 shows much of the neck below water at high spring tides, and another, published in 1830, already uses the term ‘island’ for the tip of the peninsula, where the lighthouse was then located. Before the breach, however, sand and eroded material from higher up the coast could still be carried southwards to prevent erosion at the tip itself. A traveller to Spurn in 1835, George Head, gave a description of the peninsula as it then was: “Spurn Lighthouse is four miles beyond Kilnsea, the intervening land being a narrow barren ridge, a few hundred yards in breadth … The whole of this sand-bank, that is to say, every part exposed to the sea, appears to be receiving augmentation, rather than sustaining diminution, for it is situated upon a point of confluence of currents, where the contributions of the soil are greater, on the average, than the quantity carried away … ”.


By 1850 the Admiralty had imposed a ban on removing shingle for ballast. But without groynes and embankments it was feared the Point, where the lighthouse stood, would eventually be washed away so work began the following year to close the breaches
The money was granted by Parliament in July, and Walker set about his task. He first tackled the smaller breach, and by installing groynes to build up the beaches and erecting a fence of stakes and wattles, backed up by a rampart of chalk to trap floating debris and other material brought by the sea, he succeeded in effectively closing the gap, and was able to report that this smaller breach had been sealed by May the following year. Unfortunately the main gap proved more recalcitrant and was still unsealed in 1854, when the grant of £10,000 had been exhausted. Although partly closed by the same methods at the northern end, the strong current was still carrying beach material through the remaining gap at its southern end, and the Point was still continuing to erode at a rapid rate. A further grant of £6,000 was obtained and by 1855, after a great deal of difficulty and effort, including the dumping of bargeloads of chalk from the quarry at Barton, the breach was finally closed. No sooner had this breach been sealed, however, when a third breach was made the following year. Fortunately this breach was much smaller than the two previous ones, being only 80 yards in width and 13 feet deep at high water, and after further expense and effort, it was sealed the following year, in 1857.

http://www.wilgilsland.co.uk/page32.html

Chalk seems an odd material to choose. Wouldn't shingle be a more effective defence?
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby TisILeclerc » 8:19 am

The problem I have will all this is that the megalithics appear, if the ideas are right, to have done all sorts to change the landscape and seascape to suit their purposes. But now we see cliffs in the south and east collapsing all the time because of high seas but also because the locals are prevented from doing anything to protect them.

I'm sure Venice would be upset if they were ordered to let the place drown.

I used to supply dredgers that came in regularly to dump pebbles and other aggregate on land for the building trade. They were dredging it up from the north sea. It's still going on.

I seem to remember an article a long time ago saying that this activity was changing the tidal patterns on the coast and should stop in order to protect the shore.

Add to that the various nature bodies that have told farmers to let the sea flood their fields and I get the feeling that the asylum really has been taken over.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Boreades » 12:24 pm

Mick Harper wrote:Only complete berks like the Germans keep up a steel industry.


And a new coal industry.
And strategic oil reserves.

How stupid can you get?
Aren't they the Green Leaders?

Perhaps just because they've got a better memory than us.
Some of them remember what can happen when you run out of these unfashionable raw materials.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Mick Harper » 3:21 pm

And a new coal industry.

It must be hugely subsidised by the poor old German tax-payer -- the old one certainly was. I hope we don't go back down that road. The entire world is awash with cheap coal. We could even import subsidised German coal!
And strategic oil reserves.

I've never heard of the concept other than keeping a few months supply in underground bunkers. Do tell.
How stupid can you get? Aren't they the Green Leaders?

Then quite stupid because being leaders in anything is not generally advisable. We can be second to the Germans if, against all the odds, their policy works out.
Perhaps just because they've got a better memory than us. Some of them remember what can happen when you run out of these unfashionable raw materials.

Certainly a better memory than me -- I've completely forgotten this episode in our recent past. There was a queue for a couple of weeks in 1956 and again in 1971 but I don't think this can be what you mean. Unless changing our whole economy to avoid an occasional queue is important. Perhaps it is to you country people. We've got the tube.

Not that we will ever run out of coal or oil of course, since we are fashionably leaving lots of our fossil fuels in the ground because of the expense of getting them out.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby TisILeclerc » 12:03 pm

How sure can we be that what we see today is what could be seen at the time of the megalith builders and a bit later?

Coastlines can change quite dramatically. We see this on a daily basis with cliffs falling into the sea.

So any assumption that traders were landing in a particular spot thousands of years ago must be in accordance with what was there at the time.

Image

Here's a beach on the west of Ireland that seems to come and go according to tidal and weather conditions. Now you see it .....


Image

Now you don't.

As the article says the disappearance of the beach had economic repercussions for the locals.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... night.html
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby Mick Harper » 8:51 am

Most valuable! It might explain why tidal islands were constructed at each end of the sandy beach -- keeps the sand in. Please consult a beach hydrologist near you and report back.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby TisILeclerc » 9:07 am

Now that you mention it Whitby has a beach with cliffs jutting out to the sea at Sandsend. A bit of a giveaway in that name. At the other end there are big cliffs going out into the sea, where the Abbey is.

So they would have the same effect.

Redcar beach stretches down to Saltburn in the south where there are large cliffs jutting out into the sea. And north they are stopped at the mouth of the Tees.

Perhaps causeways are doing what headlands and cliffs do naturally.
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Re: Megalithic shipping and trade routes

Postby TisILeclerc » 3:22 pm

Image

https://marccalhoun.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Broch

Here's an interesting site with a description of a causewayed broch. It hasn't been excavated but several expeditions have been made to it and measurements taken. The quote below mentions megalithic yards and Pythagorian triangles. Well one, but apparently using ancient Greek measurements.

The exactly elliptical shape of the inside wallface (below) is of considerable interest; the vast majority of brochs which have been surveyed to the necessary standard have precisely circular central courts. The dimensions of the ellipse (lengths of axes) at ground level could translate into 14 and 10 'megalithic yards' of 0.829m (Mackie 1977, fig.6) but this is implausible because too many fractions are needed to construct the ellipse. Yet the undoubted accuracy of the layout of the central court (not the outer wallface) surely gives us an insight into the nature of the community or family which commissioned the broch; ancient rituals involving precise measurement (and doubtless other things) were evidently involved in its planning and building and suggest that this broch was for a high-status group.

Dimensions [4]: internal diameter 11.59m (38 ft), wall thickness 2.39 - 3.81m (7.5 - 12.5 ft); the external diameter should therefore vary between about 16.17 to 18.91m (53-62 ft) and the average wall proportion seems to be about 33%, very low. In 1971 a new survey of the inner wallface (presumably above scarcement level) was made by the author and the inside wall of the broch, as noted, appears elliptical (it is surely significant that the places where the inner wallface leans inwards, and thus deviates from the elliptical shape, clearly show on the plan);

Allowing for 15sm for the width of the hidden scarcement it is striking how an ellipse based on a 5:12:13 Pythagorean triangle and with long and short axes of 39 and 36 Greek feet (of 12.15in or 30.86cm) fits the inner face as exactly as seems possible uner the circumstances. The author hopes to publish a paper on this topic, titled “Ritual and measurement among Scottish Iron Age elites: evidence from four elliptical brochs in the west”.

Sources: 1. NMRS site no. NF 87 SE 3: 2. Thomas 1890, 402: 3. Beveridge 2001, 149-52: 4. RCAHMS 1928, 52-3, no. 172: 5. Feachem 1963, 183: 6. Armit 1996, 9: 7. Armit 2002, 22.

E W MacKie 2007


https://canmore.org.uk/site/10364/north ... n-torcuill

The name Torcuill would seem to associate it with the Vikings and in particular the MacLeods but although they may have used it it is much older and has been dated to 100BC. Other finds in the area go back to thousands of years BC.

North Uist is dotted with sites which provide us with an insight into the lives of the island’s first settlers. The magnificent Barpa Langass cairn, reached from the Clachan - Lochmaddy road, is one fine example from this period and has been dated to around 4000 BC. It measures 25 meters in diameter with an accessible burial chamber 4 meters by 1.8 meters. In all Archaeologists have identified 19 stone circles most of which have a cairn or burial chamber nearby. Apart from cairns, tombs and stone circles, remains of round houses and early stone forts are seen in the North Uist landscape. Dun Torcuill is a good example of a broch, a fortified stone tower, dating from around 100 BC


http://www.scottishaccommodationindex.c ... stpics.htm

Calhoun also describes a sea stack he has visited known as the Isle of the Pigmies and which is associated with a hermitage and chapel. Bones of very small people were reported to have been found there.

It described a tidal island off the coast of Lewis, near the Butt of Lewis, that Macgregor said you could visit at low tide. Its legend of pigmies came from the reported discovery, in the 1500s, of many small bones and skulls. The Gaelic word for pigmie is Luspardan, and if you look at the modern OS map of Lewis you will find the island marked as Luchruban at NB 507 661, a kilometre SW of the Butt.


Image

In the early 1900s William Cook Mackenzie explored the island, and wrote about it in the Proceedings of Scottish Antiquaries, which you can find here. Mackenzie did not find any human bones, but he did uncover something amazing. He found what may have been a Christian hermitage with an oratory ruin, similar to the one on North Rona. A 10-foot diameter oratory connected by a passageway to a rectangular structure measuring eight by five feet.


https://marccalhoun.blogspot.co.uk/sear ... s%20Island

https://canmore.org.uk/site/4420/lewis- ... -luchruban

Perhaps the giants built Stonehenge and the pigmies were driven north to build little hermitages?
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