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[Boreades]

Does the Pelagius position have any affinity with the Declaration of Arbroath?

[TisILeclerc]

Strangely enough I've come across a site which throws Pelagius, Picts, the Declaration of Arbroath, the French revolution and acceptance of Roman dogma all together.

I'm not sure exactly what they are arguing as the author tells us that the Picts were converted by Pelagius but this is at odds I would have thought with the acceptance of Roman ideas.

http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=3452

I need guidance from above on this one.

[TisILeclerc]

The Declaration of Arbroath is an appeal to the Pope to respect Scotland's right to exist as a nation and without interference from the English.

In this they paint themselves as very loyal to the Pope, the Catholic church and to God. Normal for the times. They even mention that the Crusades are affected by greedy kings invading their peaceful Christian neighbours instead of going to the Holy Land.

To support them they bring up the 'history' of the Scots, mentioning in passing that they wiped out the Picts so are therefore the rightful owners of Scotland.

Not much of Pelagius from what I can see.

http://www.nas.gov.uk/downloads/declarationArbroath.pdf

[Boreades]

http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=3452
I need guidance from above on this one.

I take it you mean this part?

A version of Pelagian views lies at the heart of Methodism and the Holiness movement: "Man is basically perfectable, and through living a saintly life may become essentially sinless." This thinking was behind various blue laws, prohibitionism, abolitionism and even eugenics in the United States, and is still seen in many "Christian conservative" efforts against pornography and in favor of public displays of faith, election of Christian politicians and enforced teaching of "intelligent design" in schools. It is also seen in efforts of the "religious left," such as the "sanctuary movement." Outsiders often see the campaigns from both sides as self righteous excess and religious fanaticism.

Sorry, that's got me scratching my head as well. It looks like we need an expert on USA Fundamentalist Factions and their beliefs. Any nominees? Mick might know somebody (AEL)

[TisILeclerc]

I think the basic precept is 'do no wrong, do no harm'.

The 'right' and 'left' look at the 'harm' done and apply sanctions instead of looking at the basic principle.

In other words find a cure instead of looking at the cause of the disease.

[TisILeclerc]

The Church has become a police force. Right and Left.

What it should be doing is 'curing' the perpetrators of evil. The victim is obviously a victim but the criminal has committed a crime against himself and the 'laws of God'.

A Curate is a 'curer' of souls. In other words he works in the hereafter and not in the present.

If the criminal obeys the 'celestial laws' there will be no crime and no victims.

This basic position is confounded by the ambitions of the religious.

For example people like Jack London, an alcoholic, supported abolition in America. But all that resulted in was greater crime. Eventually the laws were repealed but the gangsters who had profited from abolition remained and went on to greater things.

[hvered]

Today is National Poetry Day I realised as a torrent of poems were being relayed on the airwaves, going back to the very first works. The fabulous story of Cadmus, a British name we were told, suddenly relating the story of the Creation (in English) was taken at face value.

Earlier, in the same sentence, the presenter, Andrew Marr, informed us that the Welsh language was the native Brythonic tongue and that Welsh means 'foreign'...without irony.

But the most extraordinary moment was Marr referring to the existence of a strange "lull" between the Y-Goddoddin and post-Norman writing. Thus the Dark Ages have become an almost comforting interlude in history.

[TisILeclerc]

The Swiss Germans have a word Welsch which they use to describe the French Swiss. Not the Italian Swiss, just the French.

Besides which if it means foreigner why do the Welsh today insist on calling themselves Welsh? Rather like the Cornish naming a part of Brittany Cornouaille. We are told that Cornwall is the English for the 'foreigners in the Horn' so why should they continue to call themselves that when they went to Brittany?

The Welsh have always been famed for their singing and poetry. Geoffrey of Monmouth describes in detail how they all sing in different parts and learn this as infants.

In which case where are all the poems of heroes and battles against the Saxons. I'm sure they exist but in Europe where populations were under constant attack from enemies there are plenty of songs, poetry and legends of their heroes. I know the Methodists and Baptists destroyed music and musical instruments in the nineteenth century but surely they couldn't have erased everything from the minds of the people? I like Welsh Male Choirs but the songs they tend to sing are really mainstream hymns from the nineteenth century or contemporary songs of the period written in the same style.

[Boreades]

The Welsh have always been famed for their singing and poetry ... Where are all the poems of heroes and battles against the Saxons?

It's my understanding that some of it was lost (from verbal traditions) after teaching the Welsh language was banned.

Welsh was actively discouraged in schools by means including the hated Welsh Not. The mid-19th century was a turbulent period in Welsh history. Popular risings and riots broke out across the country. Questions were raised in Westminster as to why the Welsh people were prone to lawlessness. ...This period is associated with that most hated symbol of English cultural oppression, the Welsh Not, or Welsh Note, a means of forcing Welsh children to speak English at school. A stick or plaque was given to any child heard speaking Welsh during school, to be handed on to whoever next spoke the language. At the end of lessons, the child left with the Welsh Not was punished.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/site ... tion.shtml

With no sense of irony, or "the worm that turned" (can you see what I did there?) there were quite a few newspaper rants c.2012, like this:

Children in some primary schools in Wales are being punished for speaking in English and even told they cannot go to the toilet unless they ask in Welsh, according to concerned parents.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/pr ... Welsh.html

[hvered]

It's incredible, to me at least. to be told to believe that English is descended from Welsh or any other foreign language.